/pt/ – Petrarchan

>>9591 may I point out the obvious, there's something wrong with the women you were with. it's a good thing that you didn't start a family with any of these people. relationships and families are overrated anyway, dysfunction is so common that even if you found someone good, even if you "hadn't waited too long" theres no guarantee that you would've had your dream family life. there are more unhappy families than happy families. but once you're married, once you have kids you're trapped, it's not a decision that you can just walk away from unless you're insane like that which I don't think you are. so it's better to be on the other side of it, single and miserable than not single and stuck. you can still build a life worth living, family is not the be all and end all society makes it out to be. if this was your dream i understand how it would hurt but there's so much you can still do.

>>9591 >every woman I've confided this in has gotten an "ick" This is the reason why everyone says "anecdote=/=data". For some reason or none, you only confided in assholes. >>9586 (OP) I don't have secrets anymore. It makes everything easier (everything is out in the open) and harder (it's a big mess to clean up), but I feel I have a better chance to deal with it now that it is out there. From now on anything that'll make me trip will need to come from DEEP.

>>9591 As >>9592 and >>9595 have alluded to, don't you think that the molestation has instilled certain relational patterns that lead you to get involved with these sorts of women? Is there a dark part of you that wants to believe no one will ever love you, as if it validates the suicidal thoughts? That it serves as proof that you'll never get what you want the most and you may as well just rope? What I am trying to grasp at is some notion that the worthlessness and damage caused by the abuse is more familiar than the alternative of actually being a whole person, and at least it can provide you with a coherent life-narrative. When you say that you "feel foolish for thinking I could have built a life worth living" it sounds to me like you are resigning yourself to a particular story about yourself that, in all likelihood, just is not true. You've been carrying it for 20 years, and starting fresh with a new story probably feels impossible when you have one readymade for you. I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. But you've clearly been able to form relationships in spite of it? A job presumably? So maybe you aren't as foolish as you think. People are starting families later and later anyways. Its hard to give advice so I'm going to refrain from annoying you as someone who has had the persistent suicidal thoughts but without the pain of sexual abuse. You sound like someone who still has hope for a better future and I wouldn't have wasted time writing if I didn't think that was the case. I hope this wasn't patronizing. But what you wrote has mirrored a lot of what I've felt in my life.

>>9591 Ruminating on negative things in the past serves a biological purpose for preventing it from happening it again. In your case, getting 'molested' as an adult will never happen again. I know it's redundant to say don't let that experience define you and just 'stop thinking about it'... But it has to be said.

>>9591 As >>9592 and >>9595 have alluded to, don't you think that the molestation has instilled certain relational patterns that lead you to get involved with these sorts of women? Is there a dark part of you that wants to believe no one will ever love you, as if it validates the suicidal thoughts? That it serves as proof that you'll never get what you want the most and you may as well just rope? What I am trying to grasp at is some notion that the worthlessness and damage caused by the abuse is more familiar than the alternative of actually being a whole person, and at least it can provide you with a coherent life-narrative. When you say that you "feel foolish for thinking I could have built a life worth living" it sounds to me like you are resigning yourself to a particular story about yourself that, in all likelihood, just is not true. You've been carrying it for 20 years, and starting fresh with a new story probably feels impossible when you have one readymade for you. I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. But you've clearly been able to form relationships in spite of it? A job presumably? So maybe you aren't as foolish as you think. People are starting families later and later anyways. Its hard to give advice so I'm going to refrain from annoying you as someone who has had the persistent suicidal thoughts but without the pain of sexual abuse. You sound like someone who still has hope for a better future and I wouldn't have wasted time writing if I didn't think that was the case. I hope this wasn't patronizing. But what you wrote has mirrored a lot of what I've felt in my life.

>>9592 It was my dream to build a life of my own from my abusive family. And I ended up in a long-term abusive relationship. Ironic. >>9595 >For some reason or none, you only confided in assholes. I've never had the best luck on Earth, lol. >>9605 >I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. I dropped out of a PhD program and still date casually. Just all feels frivolous.

>>9591 As >>9592 and >>9595 have alluded to, don't you think that the molestation has instilled certain relational patterns that lead you to get involved with these sorts of women? Is there a dark part of you that wants to believe no one will ever love you, as if it validates the suicidal thoughts? That it serves as proof that you'll never get what you want the most and you may as well just rope? What I am trying to grasp at is some notion that the worthlessness and damage caused by the abuse is more familiar than the alternative of actually being a whole person, and at least it can provide you with a coherent life-narrative. When you say that you "feel foolish for thinking I could have built a life worth living" it sounds to me like you are resigning yourself to a particular story about yourself that, in all likelihood, just is not true. You've been carrying it for 20 years, and starting fresh with a new story probably feels impossible when you have one readymade for you. I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. But you've clearly been able to form relationships in spite of it? A job presumably? So maybe you aren't as foolish as you think. People are starting families later and later anyways. Its hard to give advice so I'm going to refrain from annoying you as someone who has had the persistent suicidal thoughts but without the pain of sexual abuse. You sound like someone who still has hope for a better future and I wouldn't have wasted time writing if I didn't think that was the case. I hope this wasn't patronizing. But what you wrote has mirrored a lot of what I've felt in my life.

>>9592 It was my dream to build a life of my own from my abusive family. And I ended up in a long-term abusive relationship. Ironic. >>9595 >For some reason or none, you only confided in assholes. I've never had the best luck on Earth, lol. >>9605 >I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. I dropped out of a PhD program and still date casually. Just all feels frivolous.

>>9601 Do you feel like a loser because you're unproductive to the greater world, because you don't have a "title", or because you have nothing to do? Asking because I felt the same way during an unemployment stint not that long ago. I thought I was going to become a bohemian artist on the dole, but instead it made me feel crazy.

>>9601 >>9638 The veritable read is that unemployment DOES make you a loser, as so socially determined. You've hit the bottom 10% (+/- depending on your age and cohort) of economic capability. As a man it behooves you to make money. Ideally a lot of money. Them's the breaks! I've been unemployed for long stretches of time and it really does suck. Even though those months were the freest and most productive I've ever been, you're propelled forward by the (accurate) belief that everyone you know is looking down at you with pity or disgust. And with every day you lower your expectations a millimeter. It's a great motivator though. I logged like 50 job applications a day in that time frame. I SHOULD do that now -- my job doesn't pay me well enough and I now have the experience to level up, theoretically. But without that fire on my ass it's just too hard, frustrating, and risky to bother with.

>>9644 You're on the right track here for understanding me (>>9601). You'd be surprised how little you need to spend if you're healthy and avoiding the system. It's catching up on me and I will need to find work but I've been without it longer than you would guess, just living in the house where I took care of my dying parent. Everything in society seems not just exploitative, but extremely so. Maybe Buddhist ethics will help me get past that and do *something.* Traditionally speaking wrong livelihood is anything that trades in weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, and poison. That's pretty easy to avoid, but the hard part is the everyday deception in most jobs. I have no desire to retreat to the forest, that's a bit too far in the hermitage direction and I don't have the skills for it, but I could easily end up in the monastic system to some extent. Probably not ordained, but selling all I have for a much smaller place and working for a dharma center in some custodial or office role does have a draw. It just scares me tremendously that I would have to abandon the few friends and support I've finally made in the past few years. Right now I'm trying to take refuge in Buddha and Dharma as much as I can before the Sangha in that way.

>>9592 It was my dream to build a life of my own from my abusive family. And I ended up in a long-term abusive relationship. Ironic. >>9595 >For some reason or none, you only confided in assholes. I've never had the best luck on Earth, lol. >>9605 >I know this goes without saying but you have to deal with the ambient hum of suicidal thoughts. I dropped out of a PhD program and still date casually. Just all feels frivolous.

>>9601 >>9638 The veritable read is that unemployment DOES make you a loser, as so socially determined. You've hit the bottom 10% (+/- depending on your age and cohort) of economic capability. As a man it behooves you to make money. Ideally a lot of money. Them's the breaks! I've been unemployed for long stretches of time and it really does suck. Even though those months were the freest and most productive I've ever been, you're propelled forward by the (accurate) belief that everyone you know is looking down at you with pity or disgust. And with every day you lower your expectations a millimeter. It's a great motivator though. I logged like 50 job applications a day in that time frame. I SHOULD do that now -- my job doesn't pay me well enough and I now have the experience to level up, theoretically. But without that fire on my ass it's just too hard, frustrating, and risky to bother with.

>>9638 I can add that when I got fired from my second legal assistant job in NYC, forcing my girlfriend- now wife- and I to move back to the Midwest, I was specifically told that I was "a liability". It's tough to separate that label from just my work performance and every other facet of life where other's depend on me or look to me for help or guidance or just showing up in any capability. It's not that I don't do that in other areas of life, I usually try to pride myself (cope) that I care more about my relationships or creative pursuits than I do about generating surplus value and looking busy for my bosses at work. But at the end of the day I don't know if I'll ever trust myself to not be a liability to others.

>>9642 >you're propelled forward by the (accurate) belief that everyone you know is looking down at you with pity or disgust. it was interesting to find out how many people who otherwise have "progressive" political beliefs become pull up your bootstraps adherents when you say you're on unemployment.

>>9643 im avoiding unemployment right now because it seems every way to make money in the u.s. involves exploitation, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around ethical ways to make money and I think im just going to retreat to the forest and try an Alone-type lifestyle. anyway, theyre just jealous because youre not adding to your karmic debt right now by being unemployed

>>9644 You're on the right track here for understanding me (>>9601). You'd be surprised how little you need to spend if you're healthy and avoiding the system. It's catching up on me and I will need to find work but I've been without it longer than you would guess, just living in the house where I took care of my dying parent. Everything in society seems not just exploitative, but extremely so. Maybe Buddhist ethics will help me get past that and do *something.* Traditionally speaking wrong livelihood is anything that trades in weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, and poison. That's pretty easy to avoid, but the hard part is the everyday deception in most jobs. I have no desire to retreat to the forest, that's a bit too far in the hermitage direction and I don't have the skills for it, but I could easily end up in the monastic system to some extent. Probably not ordained, but selling all I have for a much smaller place and working for a dharma center in some custodial or office role does have a draw. It just scares me tremendously that I would have to abandon the few friends and support I've finally made in the past few years. Right now I'm trying to take refuge in Buddha and Dharma as much as I can before the Sangha in that way.

>>9644 Well, I'm not on unemployment anymore, though incidentally I'm not employed now either. >ethical ways to make money What do you think this entails? Not harming anyone/thing? >>9649 Your perspective makes me understand the "intentional communities" more, as manifestations of a kind of "secular monastery." There are a lot of those types around where I live.

>>9648 >I'm a porn addict. Honestly, people use the word 'addict' too much and it doesn't help define what's happening... You may find this interesting: pubmed(dot)ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/30358432/ >91.5% of men and 60.2% of women reported having consumed pornography in the past month. Note, that's just usage. Also, Porn addiction isn't a diagnosis according to the American Psychiatric Association. >What's the negative side effects of 'viewing' porn? Obviously there are some put the APA is not counting demoralization and bad relationships as a side effect of porn addiction. So... How would we define 'addiction'? It's a subjective topic that varies from each person. It's important to define the addiction though. Is it the visual novelty of something different? >That just leads to more and more depravity. possibly boredom is the factor (porn usages was peaking around COVID). Is it a masturbation addiction instead? >Can lead to ED and other problems Can be boredom + cope with stress Many guys think it goes away when you're in a relationship. Turns out, still well over half of guys in relationships view porn.

>>9644 Well, I'm not on unemployment anymore, though incidentally I'm not employed now either. >ethical ways to make money What do you think this entails? Not harming anyone/thing? >>9649 Your perspective makes me understand the "intentional communities" more, as manifestations of a kind of "secular monastery." There are a lot of those types around where I live.

>>9653 >What do you think this entails? Not harming anyone/thing? yes, and since all money touches everything it's an unreasonable belief I guess "ethical" can include that it helps me live at a bare minimum in spite of others suffering, and that that is ethical because I cannot deny my own will to live, but there's always some backfire that happens in that line of thinking nowadays. it's not as clear cut as a lion hunting a gazelle, these companies and their consequences are hard for me to understand it's definitely a privileged position to be in and usually people who need money just think "I need to make rent" I don't think I'm that person yet and I'd rather people who are truly struggling take those jobs than me

>>9653 >secular monastery I very much wish there was more room for this in society today. I have looked into intentional communities and unfortunately there aren't too many around me and the ones that exist don't really have a way to slowly integrate into them. They are often in too affluent areas serving primarily the rich and/or attract crazies to the point that I just don't like the risks. Cults abound. It's a lot easier to live a kind of sad but weakly urban monkish life yourself, because our society is so utterly individualist. For now I'm caught somewhere between too poor and compassionate to be a "superfluous man" and too ignorant, attached, and aversive to be a Buddha.

>>9656 I see your point (if I'm interpreting you correctly), that it's a symptom of something else. Maybe what I find most troubling about it is that it's compulsive (i.e., somewhat uncontrollable) and I still find pleasure in it when it's "distressing" to me. FYI, I am in a relationship that's 80% satisfying to me.

>>9668 (not the person you replied to but) could you pLease let me know when you've built your own so I can join?

>>9669 [email protected] Send an e-mail here, I'll let you know.

>>9675 Obviously I don't know your situation, but most cases of porn addiction are just artifacts of paranoid self-analysis. The same impulse that leads to self-diagnosis of ADHD etc.

>>9676 I don't think you're wrong, I'm pretty prone to "paranoid self-analysis" as you call it. Chronic overthinker and hypochondriac. I try not to think about it these days.

>>9726 You manually type it out with two ">" characters and the number of the post.

>>9727 Like such? Also cheers, I feel like a teen again trying to figure out IRC chatrooms.

>>9728 Correct. Also, in fairness it's a pretty unusual system for imageboards to have to manually type out a reply tag. It's intentional on the part of Admin who wrote the board software to avoid Javascript usage and keep the site code as clean and lean as possible, though I believe such a functionality should be possible with plain CSS. With mention of IRC, a /pt/ IRC would absolutely be sick, and something I have considered bringing to fore here since the beginning, but like Admin I think it would ruin the anonymous nature of this place and create inevitable clique politics.

>>9729 How do you balance with the care required by relationships around you? And I'm tempted to ask: are you a woman or a man? Because the answer has an impact (and no, this is not gender war slop-posting, only basic sociological truth: women tend to take care of relationships for the whole couple/family).