/pt/ – Petrarchan

I'm assuming you take this issue seriously and have tried several things already (including: self-help, shrink, religion...). Imex, the only solution is some sort of amor fati. Accept the issue, and then decide what to do with it: lean into it (monkmaxxing = actually research and develop a proper way to live in solitude), or make it your grand quest and put your energy into solving it (and it's a grail you might never find). Acceptance is 80% of the work imo. Suddenly you find ease into your situation, and you realise some people have to deal with loneliness, others are saddled with crazy relatives for decades, some deal with addiction, disease, poverty, death, war etc. If you accept that this is your life work because it happens to be in the middle of your way, then it become easier. And the joke is that, just when you start to enjoy the challenge, it solves itself. That said, lamenting about the past is nonsense. What is done is done, and not there anymore. The lamenting is the only thing breathing life into the past, e.g. you're hurting yourself.

>>8560

I'm assuming you take this issue seriously and have tried several things already (including: self-help, shrink, religion...). Imex, the only solution is some sort of amor fati. Accept the issue, and then decide what to do with it: lean into it (monkmaxxing = actually research and develop a proper way to live in solitude), or make it your grand quest and put your energy into solving it (and it's a grail you might never find). Acceptance is 80% of the work imo. Suddenly you find ease into your situation, and you realise some people have to deal with loneliness, others are saddled with crazy relatives for decades, some deal with addiction, disease, poverty, death, war etc. If you accept that this is your life work because it happens to be in the middle of your way, then it become easier. And the joke is that, just when you start to enjoy the challenge, it solves itself. That said, lamenting about the past is nonsense. What is done is done, and not there anymore. The lamenting is the only thing breathing life into the past, e.g. you're hurting yourself.

Thanks for the reply. I think you might have misread my post though, as I'm not worried about broader life accomplishments. I already have my own path and something I focus on. The issue I deal with is more specific.

>>8561

>>8560 Thanks for the reply. I think you might have misread my post though, as I'm not worried about broader life accomplishments. I already have my own path and something I focus on. The issue I deal with is more specific.

Everything still applies, doesn't it? Past is nonexistent, cope with isolation by fighting it or embracing it. Everything else is self-inflected suffering.

>>8560

I'm assuming you take this issue seriously and have tried several things already (including: self-help, shrink, religion...). Imex, the only solution is some sort of amor fati. Accept the issue, and then decide what to do with it: lean into it (monkmaxxing = actually research and develop a proper way to live in solitude), or make it your grand quest and put your energy into solving it (and it's a grail you might never find). Acceptance is 80% of the work imo. Suddenly you find ease into your situation, and you realise some people have to deal with loneliness, others are saddled with crazy relatives for decades, some deal with addiction, disease, poverty, death, war etc. If you accept that this is your life work because it happens to be in the middle of your way, then it become easier. And the joke is that, just when you start to enjoy the challenge, it solves itself. That said, lamenting about the past is nonsense. What is done is done, and not there anymore. The lamenting is the only thing breathing life into the past, e.g. you're hurting yourself.

>Accept the issue, and then decide what to do with it i can't decide if i do i come upon something that gets in the way then i can't do it ultimately its exhausting and feel like my environment weights on lot of the time my reasoning is beset with hyper-vigilance, all or nothing thinking and other things

>>8558 (OP) i think this problem is one that vexes me the most, that is, how does one absolve or finally remove themselves from the past? i say this as someone who has not had three decades of isolation, but at one point thought i was hopeless, and then everything changed, and i'm basically a normie with autismlite. but everyday it feels like i'm living a contradiction, where the past is always in association with my being, but yet it's severed, and somehow lingering at once. at some points, i let that feeling consume me, and it made me really stupid, i was constantly in agony about how i would never be able to relive moments or even stretches of time, and i couldn't rewrite a better life, where i would be better adjusted, better prepared for the moments i found myself in. then i self-destructed, and i think that misery did something to me, and now i don't think about it nearly as much. i cannot explain to you why that occurred (other than the surface level moment, which was heartbreak) and how exactly my psyche decided it had better things to do. maybe i realized i was not so hopeless or that the things i lamented were not so bad? or that there really was endless possibility ahead of me. any way about it, i simply stopped thinking in that pattern. now i have new problems, but that old one vanished. i think that also troubles me, because i simply don't know why or how it happened. the only individual i've read who i think comes close to approaching this problem is St. Augustine, in the Confessions. i'm not religious, only sometimes, but his conception of time combined with his treatment of the self and the way it can change or be changed, comes, i think, close to articulating this problem, because he himself is also obsessed with it.

It's trite and internet brained to quote Taxi Driver's " Loneliness has followed me my whole life. Everywhere" but it really is on point assessment of it. Past certain point it becomes seemingly impossible to break out of isolation, or sometimes even relate to others. Itrubs off on you, hard to tell if in the physical sense or some unspecific aura sort of thing. Maybe it's hostility, aloofness or some other ugly inner quality starting to converge with the superficial. Maybe it's just lack of accrued social capital difference of which between people deprived of it and " the great rest" only snowballs into huge differential as the time goes on. It's like watching world through a thick window.

>>8576

>>8558 (OP) i think this problem is one that vexes me the most, that is, how does one absolve or finally remove themselves from the past? i say this as someone who has not had three decades of isolation, but at one point thought i was hopeless, and then everything changed, and i'm basically a normie with autismlite. but everyday it feels like i'm living a contradiction, where the past is always in association with my being, but yet it's severed, and somehow lingering at once. at some points, i let that feeling consume me, and it made me really stupid, i was constantly in agony about how i would never be able to relive moments or even stretches of time, and i couldn't rewrite a better life, where i would be better adjusted, better prepared for the moments i found myself in. then i self-destructed, and i think that misery did something to me, and now i don't think about it nearly as much. i cannot explain to you why that occurred (other than the surface level moment, which was heartbreak) and how exactly my psyche decided it had better things to do. maybe i realized i was not so hopeless or that the things i lamented were not so bad? or that there really was endless possibility ahead of me. any way about it, i simply stopped thinking in that pattern. now i have new problems, but that old one vanished. i think that also troubles me, because i simply don't know why or how it happened. the only individual i've read who i think comes close to approaching this problem is St. Augustine, in the Confessions. i'm not religious, only sometimes, but his conception of time combined with his treatment of the self and the way it can change or be changed, comes, i think, close to articulating this problem, because he himself is also obsessed with it.

Honestly, it became easier once I understood that thoughts are not really meaningful and mostly habits. Yes, sometimes, for some reason, I'm fixated on this or that, and it suddenly goes away. The fixation and its disappearance have no bearing on the actual past event. That said, when I get fixated, I notice I am stuck until I am able to find a satisfying interpretation of the event. So I only feed the beast a restricted diet (I think of it for a limited time and go through various interpretations until it's diluted enough). Eventually, it dies on its own. It's a pointless game. >St. Augustine, in the Confessions Thanks for the recc, looks interesting.

someone do me a favor and shoot me if i ever get as mind-raped as >>8576

>>8558 (OP) i think this problem is one that vexes me the most, that is, how does one absolve or finally remove themselves from the past? i say this as someone who has not had three decades of isolation, but at one point thought i was hopeless, and then everything changed, and i'm basically a normie with autismlite. but everyday it feels like i'm living a contradiction, where the past is always in association with my being, but yet it's severed, and somehow lingering at once. at some points, i let that feeling consume me, and it made me really stupid, i was constantly in agony about how i would never be able to relive moments or even stretches of time, and i couldn't rewrite a better life, where i would be better adjusted, better prepared for the moments i found myself in. then i self-destructed, and i think that misery did something to me, and now i don't think about it nearly as much. i cannot explain to you why that occurred (other than the surface level moment, which was heartbreak) and how exactly my psyche decided it had better things to do. maybe i realized i was not so hopeless or that the things i lamented were not so bad? or that there really was endless possibility ahead of me. any way about it, i simply stopped thinking in that pattern. now i have new problems, but that old one vanished. i think that also troubles me, because i simply don't know why or how it happened. the only individual i've read who i think comes close to approaching this problem is St. Augustine, in the Confessions. i'm not religious, only sometimes, but his conception of time combined with his treatment of the self and the way it can change or be changed, comes, i think, close to articulating this problem, because he himself is also obsessed with it.

the past does not exist nigga

>>8584

someone do me a favor and shoot me if i ever get as mind-raped as >>8576 the past does not exist nigga

thats exactly what Augustine says

>>8578

>>8576 Honestly, it became easier once I understood that thoughts are not really meaningful and mostly habits. Yes, sometimes, for some reason, I'm fixated on this or that, and it suddenly goes away. The fixation and its disappearance have no bearing on the actual past event. That said, when I get fixated, I notice I am stuck until I am able to find a satisfying interpretation of the event. So I only feed the beast a restricted diet (I think of it for a limited time and go through various interpretations until it's diluted enough). Eventually, it dies on its own. It's a pointless game. >St. Augustine, in the Confessions Thanks for the recc, looks interesting.

in part i agree with you, except for one's thought betray something about one's self. true that thoughts have no relation to the event itself, but they do have something in relation to the present day self. otherwise, i don't think they would matter. and i understand what you mean by they don't matter, except that we do think they matter obviously otherwise we wouldn't be obsessed with trying to court them. i think confessions goes beyond a rec, it's a must read if you are interested in the self and its relation to beliefs, actions, and the "mind" or thoughts. you should also read plato and aristotle, who augustine shoulders his thoughts on top of, but i think his christian conception of the self (or at least the way augustine interprets it) adds a lot to the "dynamism" which the greeks lack.

>>8558 (OP) meirl. for the most part i manage not to think about how lonely i am, but when i do i just curl up in bed and feel nauseous. i don't think i'd even know what to do with friends at this point if i had any

>>8593

>>8558 (OP) meirl. for the most part i manage not to think about how lonely i am, but when i do i just curl up in bed and feel nauseous. i don't think i'd even know what to do with friends at this point if i had any

I'm glad to know we're all equally pathetic here at petrarchan.net

>>8587

>>8578 in part i agree with you, except for one's thought betray something about one's self. true that thoughts have no relation to the event itself, but they do have something in relation to the present day self. otherwise, i don't think they would matter. and i understand what you mean by they don't matter, except that we do think they matter obviously otherwise we wouldn't be obsessed with trying to court them. i think confessions goes beyond a rec, it's a must read if you are interested in the self and its relation to beliefs, actions, and the "mind" or thoughts. you should also read plato and aristotle, who augustine shoulders his thoughts on top of, but i think his christian conception of the self (or at least the way augustine interprets it) adds a lot to the "dynamism" which the greeks lack.

When you feel the call of the void near a high drop, do you take it to mean that you're suicidal? I think the brain just generate thoughts (even more because of our modern way of life, which lacks abandon), and we pick the ones we want to build meaning. They betray something about our day to day life rather than something about ourselves I think (is there even a self). That's why all this is both tragic and pretty ridiculous. We're writing the story, and we are choosing to hurt. Then the habits sets in and it gets (a bit) out of our hands. >>8593

>>8558 (OP) meirl. for the most part i manage not to think about how lonely i am, but when i do i just curl up in bed and feel nauseous. i don't think i'd even know what to do with friends at this point if i had any

>>8595

>>8593 I'm glad to know we're all equally pathetic here at petrarchan.net

This is the kind of posts that makes me curious to meet you people IRL. You are too self-aware to be boring/unbearable/uninteresting. So I'm guessing it's not a matter of fundamental flaw but opportunity. pic unrelated.

>>8596

>>8587 When you feel the call of the void near a high drop, do you take it to mean that you're suicidal? I think the brain just generate thoughts (even more because of our modern way of life, which lacks abandon), and we pick the ones we want to build meaning. They betray something about our day to day life rather than something about ourselves I think (is there even a self). That's why all this is both tragic and pretty ridiculous. We're writing the story, and we are choosing to hurt. Then the habits sets in and it gets (a bit) out of our hands. >>8593 >>8595 This is the kind of posts that makes me curious to meet you people IRL. You are too self-aware to be boring/unbearable/uninteresting. So I'm guessing it's not a matter of fundamental flaw but opportunity. pic unrelated.

first, i like your pic second, when you feel the call of the void, i do not think that means you are suicidal. however, the fact that the mind decides to naturally generate suicidal/self-destructive imagery or thoughts points to further meaning within thought, not that thought has no meaning. note, i don't think the call of the void is necessarily "suicidal" (which i think has a specific meaning and desire), but going along with that adjective as the closest descriptor, there must be something intrinsic to the condition of thought that thinks of death or the potential of it. i suppose my problem with your interpretation is that you say the "brain" wants to generate thoughts and "we" pick the ones we want to build meaning. obviously it's hard to deny some sort of biological partition in the cohesion of the mind-body-self relation, but i don't know if it's so clean as something else is making my thoughts and i am interacting with them as something else. what am i then? >(is there even a self) seems to be the question underlying them and i'm not ready to abandon its existence. i like the way you suggest our thoughts betray something about our day to day, rather than the intrinsic self, i agree with that, because habit and environment have always been strong factors in what builds the self. whether we are choosing the meaning, though, i'm unsure, i think there could be meaning in all of it, but maybe that's my problem.

>>8596

>>8587 When you feel the call of the void near a high drop, do you take it to mean that you're suicidal? I think the brain just generate thoughts (even more because of our modern way of life, which lacks abandon), and we pick the ones we want to build meaning. They betray something about our day to day life rather than something about ourselves I think (is there even a self). That's why all this is both tragic and pretty ridiculous. We're writing the story, and we are choosing to hurt. Then the habits sets in and it gets (a bit) out of our hands. >>8593 >>8595 This is the kind of posts that makes me curious to meet you people IRL. You are too self-aware to be boring/unbearable/uninteresting. So I'm guessing it's not a matter of fundamental flaw but opportunity. pic unrelated.

it's absolutely possible to be both self-aware and nauseatingly boring. i doubt the people you're replying to are "lonely" through bad luck alone

>>8597

>>8596 first, i like your pic second, when you feel the call of the void, i do not think that means you are suicidal. however, the fact that the mind decides to naturally generate suicidal/self-destructive imagery or thoughts points to further meaning within thought, not that thought has no meaning. note, i don't think the call of the void is necessarily "suicidal" (which i think has a specific meaning and desire), but going along with that adjective as the closest descriptor, there must be something intrinsic to the condition of thought that thinks of death or the potential of it. i suppose my problem with your interpretation is that you say the "brain" wants to generate thoughts and "we" pick the ones we want to build meaning. obviously it's hard to deny some sort of biological partition in the cohesion of the mind-body-self relation, but i don't know if it's so clean as something else is making my thoughts and i am interacting with them as something else. what am i then? >(is there even a self) seems to be the question underlying them and i'm not ready to abandon its existence. i like the way you suggest our thoughts betray something about our day to day, rather than the intrinsic self, i agree with that, because habit and environment have always been strong factors in what builds the self. whether we are choosing the meaning, though, i'm unsure, i think there could be meaning in all of it, but maybe that's my problem.

Right, call of the void was probably a bad example. So many unrelated thoughts pop-up into my mind that I'm assuming everyone is the same, and that you know what I'm talking about. >"brain" wants to generate thoughts and "we" pick the ones we want to build meaning. Yes, forget "brain" and "me", and let me rephrase : senses perceive, mind filters/prioritizes according to habits, tendencies, and probably a million other things (and I don't think we need to understand all of it). >i think there could be meaning in all of it, but maybe that's my problem. This, I agree. It's like tarot cards: their interpretation is wide enough that you can build meaning in any order and with any situation. Like a big sieve used to sort all the mess. A coin toss is a two-hole sieve, astrology is (at least) a 12-hole sieve, a tarot deck is 78-hole sieve, and mind is infinity-hole sieve for reality. Reality is so full of meaning that you have the choice, just by virtue of the probably infinite number of symbols available and their combinations. With this view, setting up some filters to guide the mind towards beneficial thoughts is easy. For instance, I once decided I would smile at every dog I would meet on the streets. This changed my relationship to walking, going out of my house, my relationship to dogs (I didn't like them; I now can tolerate and even enjoy them), my thought patterns during a walk (less ruminating, as it is often interrupted by a smile to a dog), general mood, etc. My point is that reality is pretty malleable, and reality includes myself. >>8598

>>8596 it's absolutely possible to be both self-aware and nauseatingly boring. i doubt the people you're replying to are "lonely" through bad luck alone

15 years ago I would have agreed with you. Given the current fabric of society, I'm not so sure. Also I have been blessed/cursed with a high tolerance for boringness. The steamroller that never stops talking can get a few hours of attention from me before I get tired. pic still unrelated.

>8599 A big chunk of it comes down to general apathy where you're just taking in your sensory experience without "filtering" to find the thought patterns that give you meaning. It's then impossible to really guide your thoughts or mood into a specific (ideally "positive") direction. Over time you feel helpless and that helplessness becomes a learned reaction to the world outside you. I know that if I really tried, there's a very good chance that I would not be constantly lonely and miserable. Yet, I don't do it. This is my experience at least. I'd say the ability to interpret your reality in a way which will make you happy ultimately comes down to willpower. To guide your mind you need a certain degree of willpower which will convince you that smiling at a dog will make you happier in the long run rather than end up being a pitiful, failed attempt to improve your life. However, that willpower almost always comes from having smiled at dogs long enough to form a positive feedback loop where it becomes a constant habit. Generally, telling yourself "it eventually gets better" while very slowly becoming less miserable isn't sustainable in the long run. At least not long enough to where you form that positive feedback loop. The cruel part about it is that most depressed people are cognizant of what is causing their symptoms. You're able to look at yourself from a semi-detached third person perspective and recognize how pathetic you are which only worsens your condition. You also recognize that calling yourself "pathetic" while describing self-reflection will only worsen your condition. And so on. It's a shame that DFW's name has been seemingly tarnished by truelitbros but he wrote a really good essay on this sort of thing. It's called "The Depressed Person." Anyway hopefully this retarded schizobabble is somewhat intelligible. I haven't seriously researched depression/loneliness at all so I'm mostly speaking anecdotally.

>>8599

>>8597 Right, call of the void was probably a bad example. So many unrelated thoughts pop-up into my mind that I'm assuming everyone is the same, and that you know what I'm talking about. >"brain" wants to generate thoughts and "we" pick the ones we want to build meaning. Yes, forget "brain" and "me", and let me rephrase : senses perceive, mind filters/prioritizes according to habits, tendencies, and probably a million other things (and I don't think we need to understand all of it). >i think there could be meaning in all of it, but maybe that's my problem. This, I agree. It's like tarot cards: their interpretation is wide enough that you can build meaning in any order and with any situation. Like a big sieve used to sort all the mess. A coin toss is a two-hole sieve, astrology is (at least) a 12-hole sieve, a tarot deck is 78-hole sieve, and mind is infinity-hole sieve for reality. Reality is so full of meaning that you have the choice, just by virtue of the probably infinite number of symbols available and their combinations. With this view, setting up some filters to guide the mind towards beneficial thoughts is easy. For instance, I once decided I would smile at every dog I would meet on the streets. This changed my relationship to walking, going out of my house, my relationship to dogs (I didn't like them; I now can tolerate and even enjoy them), my thought patterns during a walk (less ruminating, as it is often interrupted by a smile to a dog), general mood, etc. My point is that reality is pretty malleable, and reality includes myself. >>8598 15 years ago I would have agreed with you. Given the current fabric of society, I'm not so sure. Also I have been blessed/cursed with a high tolerance for boringness. The steamroller that never stops talking can get a few hours of attention from me before I get tired. pic still unrelated.

Also there comes a point where self-awareness gets tiring. To the point where people get frustrated by your inability to do something about a problem you're completely aware of. I've alienated a decent amount of kind, selfless people this way. It always ends the same way. We might all be incredibly unique, interesting people, but it sure doesn't feel like it lol

>>8602

>8599 A big chunk of it comes down to general apathy where you're just taking in your sensory experience without "filtering" to find the thought patterns that give you meaning. It's then impossible to really guide your thoughts or mood into a specific (ideally "positive") direction. Over time you feel helpless and that helplessness becomes a learned reaction to the world outside you. I know that if I really tried, there's a very good chance that I would not be constantly lonely and miserable. Yet, I don't do it. This is my experience at least. I'd say the ability to interpret your reality in a way which will make you happy ultimately comes down to willpower. To guide your mind you need a certain degree of willpower which will convince you that smiling at a dog will make you happier in the long run rather than end up being a pitiful, failed attempt to improve your life. However, that willpower almost always comes from having smiled at dogs long enough to form a positive feedback loop where it becomes a constant habit. Generally, telling yourself "it eventually gets better" while very slowly becoming less miserable isn't sustainable in the long run. At least not long enough to where you form that positive feedback loop. The cruel part about it is that most depressed people are cognizant of what is causing their symptoms. You're able to look at yourself from a semi-detached third person perspective and recognize how pathetic you are which only worsens your condition. You also recognize that calling yourself "pathetic" while describing self-reflection will only worsen your condition. And so on. It's a shame that DFW's name has been seemingly tarnished by truelitbros but he wrote a really good essay on this sort of thing. It's called "The Depressed Person." Anyway hopefully this retarded schizobabble is somewhat intelligible. I haven't seriously researched depression/loneliness at all so I'm mostly speaking anecdotally.

>which will convince you that smiling at a dog will make you happier in the long run rather than end up being a pitiful, failed attempt to improve your life. Whatever it is, it does start as a pitiful attempt. You don't need to be convinced for it to work (and there we come back to the idea that thoughts and feelings are mostly insignificant: these things work independently of your thought loops). You don't even need to have hope. By the way, you say pathetic, but some people would rather say humble, which is a quality in many value systems. Looking at it from the pathetic side is often a way to not go all the way: logically, if one is truly pathetic, worthy of nothing, then everything that might be obtained is pure luck, a gift, and worthy of rejoicing - and then it becomes humility, and I feel gratitude for almost everything. If I really think I am the last of the last, then the first dog that smiles back is gonna feel like winning the jackpot. But mostly, people stay in the pathetic mood, very attached to what they feel they are. It's some sort of ego trap because I then derive my worth from my patheticness, so much that I don't want to let it go. >Anyway hopefully this retarded schizobabble is somewhat intelligible. Yes, we understand each other, I think, and anecdotal evidence is the best. Every human works the same, know one and you know them all; the easiest to know is always myself. >>8603

>>8599 Also there comes a point where self-awareness gets tiring. To the point where people get frustrated by your inability to do something about a problem you're completely aware of. I've alienated a decent amount of kind, selfless people this way. It always ends the same way. We might all be incredibly unique, interesting people, but it sure doesn't feel like it lol

>I've alienated a decent amount of kind, selfless people this way. It always ends the same way. Well, yes, everything always dies, and everything is always born, old and new friendships, no matter the perceived reason. You can feel regret, sadness, nostalgia... about it, but that's just a feeling. These things are going to die and being born anyway.