/pt/ – Petrarchan

Question for OP: How much experience with German did you have before passively watching videos become worthwhile? Did you work through a textbook first? Take an online course? I've read that some hardcore Japanese learners suggest getting past this hump before abusing stimulants and reading native material all day. This seems efficient enough for me however brutal. The hump is the hard part.

>>6717 (OP) Deutsche Welle hosts free German language learning resources https://learngerman.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-9528 When you are at the point of being able to read a German-German dictionary, reading German literature to expand your vocab will be key to your success. German videos are a good start and help with listening comprehension. But they are inefficient when compared to reading books in German and expanding your vocabulary with a German-German dictionary (especially a learner's dictonary).

I was just thinking about remaking a language learning thread. Ive previously tried learning French, Italian, and ancient Greek, but I'm a disciplinecel and can't focus on studies if I'm not forced to do it. Might try to go back to French or Greek again in the near future.

>>6724

Question for OP: How much experience with German did you have before passively watching videos become worthwhile? Did you work through a textbook first? Take an online course? I've read that some hardcore Japanese learners suggest getting past this hump before abusing stimulants and reading native material all day. This seems efficient enough for me however brutal. The hump is the hard part.

I had about 5-6 years of german classes in school. Although I barely retained anything besides some grammatical concepts like how words end in present tense and past tense. I also had a tutor who would teach me German whilst I was doing CI. If you asked me, I think CI becomes incredibly valuable after learning the basics of grammar and learning about 1000-2000 of the most common words in your target language.

I'm learning the language of love with your mom

Learning languages is futile without immersion. Sitting online and shoving content slop in your ears for hours on end doesn't count even if it's in ~another language~

>>6733

Learning languages is futile without immersion. Sitting online and shoving content slop in your ears for hours on end doesn't count even if it's in ~another language~

Who is counting?

>>6739

>>6733 Who is counting?

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, assuming he meant to say that you should concentrate on the language whilst consuming TL content.

Learning another language is a major mistake. The brain only has room for one human tongue. By trying to push the limits, you will lose words in your original language. No thanks. Sent from my iPhone

>>6733

Learning languages is futile without immersion. Sitting online and shoving content slop in your ears for hours on end doesn't count even if it's in ~another language~

I think it's fun and enjoyable to learn another language, but I do think the gymnastics regarding mixmaxxing lang learning are silly. When I studied in Italy briefly, my pace at learning Italian was much, much faster than any other I've tried. But I guess that is obvious and lang learning assumes you don't have spatial immersion.

>>6733

Learning languages is futile without immersion. Sitting online and shoving content slop in your ears for hours on end doesn't count even if it's in ~another language~

that is immersion no? hearing the language all time so much so your thoughts end up being in the language

>>6758

>>6733 that is immersion no? hearing the language all time so much so your thoughts end up being in the language

>hearing the language all time so much so your thoughts end up being in the language Okay, I will simplify it for the folks in here: I watched 7 hours of programming videos, but I did not open a code editor or write a line of code. Am I a programmer? I watched 7 hours of bodyweight training videos, but I did not stand up or move my body around in my room. Am I a fitness instructor? I watched 7 hours of cooking videos, but I did not buy any ingredients or go to my kitchen. Am I a cook? Do you understand it now? "Language learning" is not a passive activity. It's not a philosophical musing you think about and discard at the end of the day. Languages are used to communicate between humans. To learn them, you must communicate with someone. An American line cook who banters with his Latino coworkers by saying "hola maricon" at the beginning of each shift is better at Spanish than 1000 nerds who sat in front of their computer all day and scrolled social media/played video games while Spanish noise wafted in the background.

>>6761

>>6758 >hearing the language all time so much so your thoughts end up being in the language Okay, I will simplify it for the folks in here: I watched 7 hours of programming videos, but I did not open a code editor or write a line of code. Am I a programmer? I watched 7 hours of bodyweight training videos, but I did not stand up or move my body around in my room. Am I a fitness instructor? I watched 7 hours of cooking videos, but I did not buy any ingredients or go to my kitchen. Am I a cook? Do you understand it now? "Language learning" is not a passive activity. It's not a philosophical musing you think about and discard at the end of the day. Languages are used to communicate between humans. To learn them, you must communicate with someone. An American line cook who banters with his Latino coworkers by saying "hola maricon" at the beginning of each shift is better at Spanish than 1000 nerds who sat in front of their computer all day and scrolled social media/played video games while Spanish noise wafted in the background.

>Pseudo intellectual babble without any understanding of language

I guess I should take it as a compliment that even my most dumbed-down and itemized explanations still strike retards as "pseudo-intellectual"

>>6768

I guess I should take it as a compliment that even my most dumbed-down and itemized explanations still strike retards as "pseudo-intellectual"

Because you clearly don't understand how language functions. Language is made up of two parts, input and output. Input is essentially listening to a language and trying to understand it. Output is communication. You can only output as much as you can input. But I guess I should just do duolingo and I'll become a language expert by your logic.

>>6771

>>6768 Because you clearly don't understand how language functions. Language is made up of two parts, input and output. Input is essentially listening to a language and trying to understand it. Output is communication. You can only output as much as you can input. But I guess I should just do duolingo and I'll become a language expert by your logic.

How did you take away that I'm a duolingo pusher? I'm drawing a comparison between one-sided digital content consumption and real-life interaction with other human beings. You just skimmed over my reply and thought you'd argue with the enemy you want to argue against, lol. In fact, you are actually the one that is being "pseudo-intellectual" by replying on cheap simplifications such as comparing people to analog signal jacks. It is pseudo-scientific and pointlessly reductionist, a watered down facsimile-of-a-fascimilie of what neuroscience describes as brain function. Something you learned by osmosis from hanging around the Roman ruins of former intellectual spaces online, and have never sat down to examine. We don't exist as floating quantitative values to be filled. Quality input matters more than literally how many hours you tallied like a counter. It is so fucking stupidly obvious that even being a passive, mute audience member to a real-life conversation between other people is light years away from binge-consuming online content by yourself at home or in your stupid bluetooth earbuds. Come on!

>>6774

>>6771 How did you take away that I'm a duolingo pusher? I'm drawing a comparison between one-sided digital content consumption and real-life interaction with other human beings. You just skimmed over my reply and thought you'd argue with the enemy you want to argue against, lol. In fact, you are actually the one that is being "pseudo-intellectual" by replying on cheap simplifications such as comparing people to analog signal jacks. It is pseudo-scientific and pointlessly reductionist, a watered down facsimile-of-a-fascimilie of what neuroscience describes as brain function. Something you learned by osmosis from hanging around the Roman ruins of former intellectual spaces online, and have never sat down to examine. We don't exist as floating quantitative values to be filled. Quality input matters more than literally how many hours you tallied like a counter. It is so fucking stupidly obvious that even being a passive, mute audience member to a real-life conversation between other people is light years away from binge-consuming online content by yourself at home or in your stupid bluetooth earbuds. Come on!

Blud doesn't even know what Anki is :wilted_flower: This gotta be ragebait :sob:

>>6761

>>6758 >hearing the language all time so much so your thoughts end up being in the language Okay, I will simplify it for the folks in here: I watched 7 hours of programming videos, but I did not open a code editor or write a line of code. Am I a programmer? I watched 7 hours of bodyweight training videos, but I did not stand up or move my body around in my room. Am I a fitness instructor? I watched 7 hours of cooking videos, but I did not buy any ingredients or go to my kitchen. Am I a cook? Do you understand it now? "Language learning" is not a passive activity. It's not a philosophical musing you think about and discard at the end of the day. Languages are used to communicate between humans. To learn them, you must communicate with someone. An American line cook who banters with his Latino coworkers by saying "hola maricon" at the beginning of each shift is better at Spanish than 1000 nerds who sat in front of their computer all day and scrolled social media/played video games while Spanish noise wafted in the background.

you still picked up something in those 7 hrs ever heard of the expression 'lurk moar' or 'lurk first' thats what it is

I'm learning Tamil, which is challenging because of how sparse English-language resources are for it. Having a native-speaking tutor has helper a lot. There's a huge disparity between written (strict, linguistically conservative) and spoken Tamil (loose, lots of loanwords) which adds to the challenge, since I'm mostly interested in speaking Tamil, for which there are even less resources It sounds/looks really pretty tho and I think I'm making good progress

>>6825

I'm learning Tamil, which is challenging because of how sparse English-language resources are for it. Having a native-speaking tutor has helper a lot. There's a huge disparity between written (strict, linguistically conservative) and spoken Tamil (loose, lots of loanwords) which adds to the challenge, since I'm mostly interested in speaking Tamil, for which there are even less resources It sounds/looks really pretty tho and I think I'm making good progress

that is cool anon. where do you live that there are tamil speakers that you can converse with? or do you intend to use the internet?

I have to learn a second language as part of our liberal arts program, and didn't have the opportunity to learn anything in HS so that I could test out (thank you Midwestern parochial school). I picked ancient Greek because it's the highest status language, but my hearts not into it. Apparently most students are able to rest out of the language requirement, which seems like the optimal path, given that I'll have to spend at least 20 credits just on this language, and for no real practical gain outside of cultural continuation. idk

I'm learning Greek with Language Transfer. It's awesome

I mostly learn languages to read books in the text. I hardly reach fluency, so I end up reading bilingual books and relying on my mother tongue when I can't decipher the text. This way, I get a feel of the original poetry.

>>7003

I mostly learn languages to read books in the text. I hardly reach fluency, so I end up reading bilingual books and relying on my mother tongue when I can't decipher the text. This way, I get a feel of the original poetry.

I get the sense that this was what all those old timey aristocrats were doing when they learnt french, Italian, latin, and Greek.

I studied japanese on and off for years, and got good enough to do voice chats with a japanese friend for hours. Gave it up though. I guess mainly because you have to be a very sensitive person to really enjoy language. If you're a cold, robotic, overly-logical asshole then languages aren't rewarding because the true pleasure of language learning is picking up on subtle vibes the foreign language has that yours does not. With japanese books the vibe is a kind of general fatality that hangs over everything. Not in the greek fashion with people openly challenging fate and getting rocked for it but moreso that because you recognize there's an infinite sea of life forces or wills acting across the entire universe (pantheism) you realize your own individual will is nothing by comparison and the universe could swallow you up at any time and it's just an acceptance of that. I feel like the visual novel Swan Song captured this well.

>>7018

I studied japanese on and off for years, and got good enough to do voice chats with a japanese friend for hours. Gave it up though. I guess mainly because you have to be a very sensitive person to really enjoy language. If you're a cold, robotic, overly-logical asshole then languages aren't rewarding because the true pleasure of language learning is picking up on subtle vibes the foreign language has that yours does not. With japanese books the vibe is a kind of general fatality that hangs over everything. Not in the greek fashion with people openly challenging fate and getting rocked for it but moreso that because you recognize there's an infinite sea of life forces or wills acting across the entire universe (pantheism) you realize your own individual will is nothing by comparison and the universe could swallow you up at any time and it's just an acceptance of that. I feel like the visual novel Swan Song captured this well.

(You) Forgot to mention, if you are a very sensitive person though foreign language books are one of the best things you'll ever experience. Like, Yasunari Kawabata in japanese has a vibe that Yasunari Kawabata in english does not, and the vibe this book has is something you can't get in the english world, it does not exist here. It's hard to accept this book is only 100 years old because mentally it feels like a totally different reality from our own.

I'm trying to learn English, mainly through reading. The last 40 days or so I've been consistently putting 4-6 hours into this project, which started in January 21th. I was inspired by "Reading for language power" (published in 1926; can be found in JSTOR) and the experiences of individuals like The Doth and Jazzy. They are really popular in the AJATT community (and its offsprings). I haven't practised my listening yet, and my output is quite poor (my speaking abilities, which are largely derived from listening, are virtually nonexistent; my writing is perhaps tolerable, but it feels unnatural). I tried using Anki to learn vocab, but soon migrated to Supermemo. I have +5,000cards, with a retention of 87%, which is of course not ideal. My main problem is "white noising", i.e. tolerating a wee bit too much the ambiguity. I'm not really apt to judge myself, but I think reading is great for acquiring vocab and getting a feel for the language. If at the beginning I couldn't make sense of anything, now I can at least read most of the things I want, although I still have to look-up around five words per page, if the text is difficult (for example, I'm reading some of Ruskin's works, and they are awfully difficult). I'm no expert when it comes to language learning, but if I had to give advice, I'd say: a) Use an SRS b) Read as much as you can, both intensively and extensively (or "free flow") In essence, engage with the language as much as you can. Khatzumoto wrote something like "learning a language is an excellent pursuit, because you don't have to give up on your interests", and I think it's true. And this makes language learning really fun :D

>>7144

I'm trying to learn English, mainly through reading. The last 40 days or so I've been consistently putting 4-6 hours into this project, which started in January 21th. I was inspired by "Reading for language power" (published in 1926; can be found in JSTOR) and the experiences of individuals like The Doth and Jazzy. They are really popular in the AJATT community (and its offsprings). I haven't practised my listening yet, and my output is quite poor (my speaking abilities, which are largely derived from listening, are virtually nonexistent; my writing is perhaps tolerable, but it feels unnatural). I tried using Anki to learn vocab, but soon migrated to Supermemo. I have +5,000cards, with a retention of 87%, which is of course not ideal. My main problem is "white noising", i.e. tolerating a wee bit too much the ambiguity. I'm not really apt to judge myself, but I think reading is great for acquiring vocab and getting a feel for the language. If at the beginning I couldn't make sense of anything, now I can at least read most of the things I want, although I still have to look-up around five words per page, if the text is difficult (for example, I'm reading some of Ruskin's works, and they are awfully difficult). I'm no expert when it comes to language learning, but if I had to give advice, I'd say: a) Use an SRS b) Read as much as you can, both intensively and extensively (or "free flow") In essence, engage with the language as much as you can. Khatzumoto wrote something like "learning a language is an excellent pursuit, because you don't have to give up on your interests", and I think it's true. And this makes language learning really fun :D

>My main problem is "white noising", i.e. tolerating a wee bit too much the ambiguity. I had the same issue after years of learning through reading. A few months of grammar exercises cured it, forcing me to go through a wide variety of configurations I would otherwise meet every two years (and ignore). Bakc then, I literally used a "[language's] grammar for dummies" exercise book. >the AJATT community This is very interesting.

I continue to study Japanese. Sometimes finding the right pacing is a bit challenging given that I am pursuing self study, but I feel that I am learning a lot when I put time in. Trying to practice consistency by at least reviewing old material every day even when I don't learn anything new. Would like to learn more about: Japanese poetry, art history, historical and contemporary literature.

>>7158

I continue to study Japanese. Sometimes finding the right pacing is a bit challenging given that I am pursuing self study, but I feel that I am learning a lot when I put time in. Trying to practice consistency by at least reviewing old material every day even when I don't learn anything new. Would like to learn more about: Japanese poetry, art history, historical and contemporary literature.

https://www.oranlooney.com/post/genji-ko/ I never found someone to share this article with, so here it is, you might be interested.

>>7160

>>7158 https://www.oranlooney.com/post/genji-ko/ I never found someone to share this article with, so here it is, you might be interested.

Wow, never heard of this, thanks for sharing. 本当に面白い.

>>6831

I have to learn a second language as part of our liberal arts program, and didn't have the opportunity to learn anything in HS so that I could test out (thank you Midwestern parochial school). I picked ancient Greek because it's the highest status language, but my hearts not into it. Apparently most students are able to rest out of the language requirement, which seems like the optimal path, given that I'll have to spend at least 20 credits just on this language, and for no real practical gain outside of cultural continuation. idk

I did Greek in school, too. What makes your heart not in it? Just a lack of contemporary use-value? You should perhaps try to find texts that really speak to you. Or consider it a lesson in discipline lol. I do think it's an interesting language, so if you lack that particular passion, I could see one faltering.

I'm plowing through "Représentations de l'espace dans la mythologie tatuyo" (one page a day: I'm in my 35th day). Surprisingly engaging and relatively easy at times. For example, I didn't know two words from this fragment, even though it's in the first page: Tous les Tatuyo descendent d'un ancêtre mythique commun, ils sont tous parents (consanguins) entre eux selon le mode de filiation patrilinéaire ; ils parlent tous la même langue, en opposition aux autres groupes ou « tribus » tucano voisins qui sont pensés (par les Tatuyo) comme des gens parlant des langues différentes. I guess I'm blessed to have a Romance-language background. Also I don't practice listening and I haven't learned the phonetics of the language, so if at some point listening/speaking becomes a part of my goals, I'll be fuarked (I pronounce French words the same as Spanish ones, so... yeah).

>>7413

I'm plowing through "Représentations de l'espace dans la mythologie tatuyo" (one page a day: I'm in my 35th day). Surprisingly engaging and relatively easy at times. For example, I didn't know two words from this fragment, even though it's in the first page: Tous les Tatuyo descendent d'un ancêtre mythique commun, ils sont tous parents (consanguins) entre eux selon le mode de filiation patrilinéaire ; ils parlent tous la même langue, en opposition aux autres groupes ou « tribus » tucano voisins qui sont pensés (par les Tatuyo) comme des gens parlant des langues différentes. I guess I'm blessed to have a Romance-language background. Also I don't practice listening and I haven't learned the phonetics of the language, so if at some point listening/speaking becomes a part of my goals, I'll be fuarked (I pronounce French words the same as Spanish ones, so... yeah).

Reading above your level is always a great way to make progress, if you can tolerate the limited but uncomfortable experience of not understanding what you're reading. I "got" English once I went through a "big" book (= not a Shakespeare play). I didn't understand the first half of it, but by the end of the book, everything was clearer.

>>7413

I'm plowing through "Représentations de l'espace dans la mythologie tatuyo" (one page a day: I'm in my 35th day). Surprisingly engaging and relatively easy at times. For example, I didn't know two words from this fragment, even though it's in the first page: Tous les Tatuyo descendent d'un ancêtre mythique commun, ils sont tous parents (consanguins) entre eux selon le mode de filiation patrilinéaire ; ils parlent tous la même langue, en opposition aux autres groupes ou « tribus » tucano voisins qui sont pensés (par les Tatuyo) comme des gens parlant des langues différentes. I guess I'm blessed to have a Romance-language background. Also I don't practice listening and I haven't learned the phonetics of the language, so if at some point listening/speaking becomes a part of my goals, I'll be fuarked (I pronounce French words the same as Spanish ones, so... yeah).

Yomitan es realmente útil si estás leyéndolo en un browser (p.ej. Edge). Y, si usas Anki, te permite automatizar la creación de flashcards (aunque no es recomendable en todos los casos).

>>7430

>>7413 Reading above your level is always a great way to make progress, if you can tolerate the limited but uncomfortable experience of not understanding what you're reading. I "got" English once I went through a "big" book (= not a Shakespeare play). I didn't understand the first half of it, but by the end of the book, everything was clearer.

It's like watching Limmy's Show and slowly coming to understand scots patois

Check-in. I'm close to 2000 words known. I need 3000 for day-to-day life (seems to be the appropriate number). I am at that weird point where I recognize every word when someone is talking, but my brain lags so much, I can't process the meaning. I guess I should be listening to radio and watching tv more. Reading is quite the same: I understand nothing at first; the third or fourth readings give me access to the text (and some grammatical analysis helps me get over whatever stays obscure). The whole learning process is very frustrating and rewarding, and these are probably related.