/pt/ – Petrarchan

>>2077 yeah i started transitioning in 2013 back before we became a political talking point and while i'm not about to blame euphoria hons for america's descent into retardo-fascism i absolutely do blame them for oversaturating our public image with tonedeaf reddit shit. it's like a few dozen viral videos of unhinged spergs has completely overshadowed what trans people are actually like. everyone i know has basically given up on trying to integrate with cis people because despite most trannies being behaviorally indistinguishable from your average autistic art hoe, everyone thinks we're skirt go spinny ladyboner hons despite never having interacted with trans people outside of videos their chud friend sends them. which sucks because now it's like the only ones they're exposed to are the freaks that *nobody* wants to be around. i remember going to a /k/ meetup when i was really early in. i didn't pass, just kinda looked like a twink that was too feminine to not have something else going on. i got a few nasty comments but once they realized i was chill everything was fine. i made a few friends there and we got along really well, but around 2015/2016 they did a 180 and started treating me like shit because /pol/ told them to. i miss when the internet "wasn't real life", now it's like all the tangible experiences people have when disconnected from the internet exist only to inform how they interact with people online. they don't even work out or go shooting anymore, they just get drunk and share memes on telegram. bleak as fuck

>>2290 >>2536 My sentiments exactly.

>>2321 The British Transport Police deals with the railway network. Common reasons they might detain someone would be drugs, knives etc. Airports have different police The upshot of the new rule is that MtF trans have to be searched by men, even if they have had genital surgery. Tbh I don't really care if female employees are 'forced' to search trannies because that is literally their job, while the people being searched have got no choice in it. It's like a woman demanding a female gynecologist (totally fair) vs a female nurse saying she won't help a man with, say, a urinary catheter or perform a prostate exam where that's indicated. I think it is just wrong to make a transitioned woman be searched by men (and vice versa). But I also think cis woman should be able to be refused being searched by a trans woman too. Unfortunately many people can't strike a balance and have to treat trans women as either exactly the same as cis women or as just men (probably as 'perverted' men)

>>2321 >>2348 I'm not trans but it saddens me to think that trans women will be treated presumptively as men. The trans lobbies should have kept out weirdos and perverts like, for instance, convicted murderers who want to move to a female prison

>>2346 >liveboard that's fucking nuts

>>2321 >>2348 I'm not trans but it saddens me to think that trans women will be treated presumptively as men. The trans lobbies should have kept out weirdos and perverts like, for instance, convicted murderers who want to move to a female prison

>>2349 Looks like Kristen Schaal

>>2491 i choose to regard this as irony

>>2504 indeed. We are speaking truth to degeneracy. The world is on our side though.

>>2290 >>2536 My sentiments exactly.

>>2638 The surgeries are getting good, many trans pass now. Ofc one only notices the unpassing ones.

>>2668 If one of the richest and most famous trans today is still this visibly male, do these supposed "passing ones" really exist?

>>2668 They only pass in a photo, and only when a woman is not standing next to them. IRL you can see a clear difference because the proportions are different, and no surgery fixes that.

>>2687 Agree. But Trump needs to go further. He needs to ban them from any kind of existence, and make doing this perversion punishable by death. Only then will we claw back any kind of normalcy again from these groomers. If Trump does not do thos, and soon, he is their ally, and an enemy to civilization.

>>2699 Hunter Schafer is far from the richest, but could claim to be the most famous; her whole appeal to a certain set of men (and perhaps a smaller number of women) is that she has both male and female characteristics which creates an androgynous look. Androgyny is favoured in high fashion hence why she has been able to integrate herself into the fashion spehere. She herself seems to want to be basically an androgyne rather than being completely a woman, which is why she not only doesn't want to get genital surgery but actually is happy to wear outfits etc which don't disguise her 'bulge'. It is very uncommon for trans women to be happy appearing at beaches in a bikini while 'untucked'... Do you really not think any trans woman can pass? Seems unrealistic. If you get facial surgery and develop a female body type with hormones, have vocal training lessons and are not tall, you have a reasonable chance of passing.

>>2699 nigga looks like bladee

>>2709 He's obviously not going to do anything even remotely like that, you retard.

>>2709 Meds

>>2731 What did I vote for him for then.

>>2736 I dunno, man. You're the retard, not me. Well, ok, I'm also retarded.

>>2752 I don't think passing is impossible, but the vast majority of trannies don't and never will. There's just too many differences between men and women. You can smash your face into a feminine form, but there's no way to deal with man shoulders or man hands.

>>2752 All those things are in great part because he is, by his own admission, a fetishist. But you are correct, if you have a female's face, develop a female body, and have a female's voice, you can pass as a woman. All you really need to have those things is to be born with the right chromosomes for them.

>>2798 True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things. >the vast majority of trannies don't and never will This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?) >>2920 You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.

>>2798 True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things. >the vast majority of trannies don't and never will This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?) >>2920 You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.

>>2928 see my response >>2934

>>2928 see my response >>2934

>>2972 tttt is far from typical of the T's, of course.

>>2994 You seem disturbed yourself.

>>3018 tttt culture started to fan out into the wider world via memes and screenshots shared on other social media sites.

>>3082 >They only pass in a photo I feel like the proliferation of phone cameras is one of the lesser reasons for the explosion of trans identification. Trans women in particular can take as many selfies as they want and only share the images where they pass. This gives impressionable proto-trannies the idea that passing is common and they too can pass if they transition.

>>3089 also despite the rejection of the idea that "trans person" is a real thing and not a created subcultural identity, i say all this with sympathy i don't know how to fix this in a way that is moral

>>3089 Some trannies transition because they are perverts and some transition because they want to become desexed eunuchs. TERFs believe MtFs are all the first type and FtMs are all the latter, but it actually seems to be pretty evenly divided between males and females. The 'pervert' type of tranny seems to be getting more common among women if anything. If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish and those of the latter type would become nuns/monks or simply spinsters/confirmed bachelors. The 'born this way' narrative is just as false for homosexuality. I can concede that a small number of people are biologically same sex attracted 'sexual inverts' (and those people are now often transitioning into the eunuch trans subtype) but the rest are just pervs that want a receptacle for their penis, or they lack the maturity needed to form a normal monogamous heterosexual relationship. Low class hypersexual gay men are not really attracted to men, they are attracted to easily available gay sex. High profile intelligent gay men like Sam Altman seem almost asexual in contrast and they clearly are too narcissistic to develop a normal other-oriented sexuality, which is why they tend to pick partners that look just like them and use surrogacy to get their mini-me sons. The increase in abnormal sexuality (trannyism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, paraphilias etc) and the corresponding and often comorbid increase in psychopathology over the pasr few decades is undeniable but we’re supposed to pretend it’s not happening, and if it’s happening it’s actually good. I’d guess the causes include some combination of dysgenic fertility, environmental pollution and the collapse of sexual norms and taboos brought about by the sexual revolution.

>>3093 Also samefag but I’d actually say that 'pervert' and 'eunuch' are the two dominant modes of sexuality today in general, not only among trannies. Normal sexuality is nearly nonexistent now.

>>3093 >If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish why? maybe this is their fetish

>>3114 the good old days... fucking rdm and ghosting lmaooooooooo never4get de_clue :,,,((

>>3119 if you're an american/other anglo, you can just get your daughter a knife/gun, it's useful for other reasons anyway, and stay away from organized sports for girls anyway, mostly useless. take advantage of the individualist society you live in. also if you get fired for misgendering someone it's because you were a dweeb to begin with

I'm gonna miss bullying /ftmg/ like you wouldn't believe... >>3155 >why some amab queer think they suffered than afab. Autistic people have it worse than the average foid, anon.

>>3162 Jealous because FtMs are women who rejected their womanhood, meanwhile you can only dream of being one? >>3279 I don't think 'ordinary trans people' even exist.

>>3162 Jealous because FtMs are women who rejected their womanhood, meanwhile you can only dream of being one? >>3279 I don't think 'ordinary trans people' even exist.

>>3279 >>3317 >>3337 >>3341 i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already >>3350 real

>>3279 >>3317 >>3337 >>3341 i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already >>3350 real

>>3279 >>3317 >>3337 >>3341 i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already >>3350 real

>>3279 >>3317 >>3337 >>3341 i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already >>3350 real

>>3279 >>3317 >>3337 >>3341 i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already >>3350 real

>>3352 There are more sites where you can go be your obnoxious, freak self than there are where people can openly criticize your kind. Hopefully that's changing.

>>3352 Why are you objecting to these posts? They don't seem any more poorly thought out or low quality than the rest of the thread.

>>3352 >opens a thread specifically about trans people >there's people talking about them >gets mad I don't want to be on twitter it reeks even from the outside. And while it's true that if you feel you can't criticize them even a little amongst friends, you need better friends, you're out of touch if you think that it can't ever get you in trouble irl.

>>3370 fuck it all dude. if you're not a loser and have a life you don't need to worry about being vocally anti trans, because it won't affect you and no one who matters will dock you for it. if you let someone get in your head about, that's on you

>>3370 like this is an irl don't feed the trolls situation. they're psyoping you to believe you'll be disowned by society if you don't respect the pronouns (and through this they also catch people who are getting polarized against) but really, you can just ignore it and be better off

>>3546 There’s dozens of studies like these, IDK why the obvious implication is so taboo

>>3808 Anecdotal, but I've heard this works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSAQyzPcl0

>>3982 It is denied because LGBT+ NGOs would like to use suicide rates amongst LGBTs as evidence for oppression, which means that the NGOs need to suck more monies from the government or big donors. They also think that it would encourage conversion therapy as it would give some reason for it other than disgust at homosexuality, but there's no reason to think people can be converted from neurotic to normal either. It's in your genes, and always about management This is not to deny that genuine homo/transphobia does exist, but the great differences in e.g. personality disorders (especially BPD) between gays and straights is based on inborn characteristics. Personally, I remember having extreme parental separation anxiety as a young child and it seems like a lot of gay people are the same. Interestingly, MtF trans who have personality disorders have similar ones as women who do (e.g. BPD, histrionic, dependent) while FtM have more male ones (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid).

>>3983 I've tried to perform cognitive behavioral therapy-type exercises on myself, doesn't make the thoughts go away. I don't have an internal sense of really "being" the opposite gender as most transgender seem to, rather I have a sense of earnestly wanting I was/wishing I was born the opposite sex. Sucks being this way but I would guess it is more common than we hear.

>>4077 It's a lack of gate-keeping within the transgender movement: a lack of gate-keeping is fatal to any political movement. Now the weird people have been allowed to control the discourse. It may be, unfortunately, that as it becomes harder to live as a trannie that high IQ, ordinary people will not transition and will repress, leaving the ones who have poor impulse control or nothing left to lose making up the majority. It may be that the movement splits and a more medicalized/scientific group of trans separate themselves from the crazy masses As soon as I saw my real-life friends watching and sending on the "IT'S MA'AM!!" clip, I knew that trans acceptance was basically over. Plus Wi Spa. Anyway hope you are doing ok there in US.

>>4077 I've met lots of trans people in real life. FtMs are often more normal, sometimes even chill, though typically awkward, autistic women who didn't fit in even before transitioning and definitely don't fit in after. But the transwomen, even when not mega-hons, still have a grimy, masturbatory element to them, like they're just very, very male and there's something off-putting about them wearing female clothing in a way that's different from say, Harry Styles or David Bowie. Like you can tell it's not for comfort or fashion, there's just an indulgent sexual element to it and we're all supposed to pretend there isn't. If you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold.

>>4118 not trans myself but I do think it seems very likely that some sort of transmedicalist movement will go mainstream in this current political environment. it will appeal to the general public and policymakers as a 'common sense' synthesis that will appear as if it provides a path out of the culture war thicket. key tenets: * consolidation of the existence of trans people * predication of trans identity on the medical condition of gender dysphoria and a genuine and wilful desire to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life * scepticism if not outright dismissal of non-binary and non-orthodox 'trans' gender identities. * repudiation of the notion that having unusually feminine qualities as a male or unusually masculine ones as a female necessarily implies a 'queer' or otherwise non-standard gender identity * acceptance of biological sex as real and pertinent to certain aspects of society including physical sports, prisoner housing etc. * a willingness to allow biological sex to be conflated with gendered terms in certain contexts to avoid offputting neologisms such as 'birthing person' or 'menstruator'. I think (and hope) it is possible that something like this, with sufficient support from a subset of the trans community, could become the mainstream societal position on trans issues in the anglosphere. It would be good for politics if it stopped being a hot button issue, though god knows whatever came next would probably be just as tiresome. Maybe new atheism v2?

>>4118 the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131 , i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans. >>4131 brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain. the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial. zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.

>>4127 One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following: 1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them 2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances. 3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people 4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry. 5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen. Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away. >>4128 What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one. Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way. >f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.

>>4127 One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following: 1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them 2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances. 3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people 4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry. 5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen. Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away. >>4128 What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one. Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way. >f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.

i was worried i'd hit a character limit. this is a good board,,, >>4128 this just tells me you've only interacted with the sheltered redditor subspecies of tranny, who are probably the only ones who'd try to interact with you if only because they're not actively avoiding you. that or they never felt comfortable around you and unconsciously assumed the deer-in-headlights posture because the last time a cis person with your vibes tried to talk to them they said something fucked up. it comes down to this every time i hear a cis person "give their take" on trans people, they're always oblivious to the fact that the only trans people who'd give them the time of day are the ones who are so devoid of maturity, self control, and social experience that they've been spared the watershed moment all determined transsexuals have when they find out exactly how low on the totem pole we are. my watershed moment is actually what led me to go to that /k/ meetup lol. i got jumped in high school really bad for being visibly faggy. ended up in the hospital, needed some reconstructive surgeries, took almost a year to be able to return to normal activity. i lived in arizona at the time, so obviously i bought a handgun for self defense and shoehorned guns into a hobby, mostly because i couldn't bear to be outside without knowing i could reasonably defend myself against three or more people. there was fuck all to do in arizona in the early/mid 2010s, and i got invited by a guy i knew was chill. some of my best friends back then were veterans, and since i knew there'd be a good few vets at the meetup i went because at least i'd be able to shoot some steel. the meetup itself was fine, i don't remember most of it because it was boring. that was the last time i sought out meeting internet people irl. arizona was so boring you have nooooo idea

>>4131 By "We will just have to agree to disagree..." in 2), I meant that society and trans people will just have to agree to disagree, not that you and I have to agree to disagree. Personally, for me gender is a gestalt and I can't change the way I feel about someone based on their identification as trans, it's based on my impression of their appearance and behavior. I still use the pronouns they would wish, though, but I wouldn't if I felt their transitioning was actively harming others. On the other hand, I can know someone is trans and still perceive them as 'just another woman'/'just another man', if they satisfy the gestalt. TERFs call this sex stereotyping, trans people call it transphobic, but everyone does this.

>>4118 the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131 , i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans. >>4131 brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain. the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial. zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.

>>4131 Preposterous comment given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothing and you responded with Hunter Schaefer who 1) looks obviously male and 2) is a rampant fetishist. I worked for a large bookstore chain in middle management and was active in my city's arts scene as well as the gay scene. I've since left all 3, the latter two because of mentally ill trans people taking over and boring the hell out of me. Think I'm going to exit this thread as well. You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life.

I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society. I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man? I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world >>4160 The trans I'm friends with spend way too much time on the internet and are kind of gross in some of the things they say. Sometimes they just start rambling about their nebulous disabilities and it's very exhausting. The "IT'S MA'AM" stuff is definitely not very real and most of those videos are probably just farming ragebait anyway. The compilation videos you're referring to are consumed by the elderly (millenials/boomers)

>>4161 yeah i don't expect your trans friends to go outside any time soon. in the midwest and on the east coast at least, the gross rambling shutin seems to be the most common kind of trans woman. in most cases they're just insanely depressed, trying to dissociate and distract themselves from the existential dread instilled by complete disenfranchisement. you gotta have a thick hide to be trans and live any sort of fulfilling life; most people lack that but get by without directly receiving too much aggression because of our society's insane amount of tolerance for antisocial behavior. trans women are one of those minorities that are absolutely not afforded that flexibility. we're going to see a lot of strong-willed trans women gain notoriety in the next few years, but for every one of them there's a few hundred hylics that can't stand being away from their triple monitor setup running discord, final fantasy, and valorant without either having a panic attack (if they grew up poor) or throwing a shockingly impotent hissy fit (if they grew up rich). the main reason i care enough to write all this shit is because the internet is the main place cis people interact with trans people, and the only voices you can hear are coming from those kinda people. the "not feeling like a man/woman" thing is the result of the aforementioned nervous system/HPG axis mismatch. tl;dr, the core of GID is lies somewhere in the development of the nervous system as the result of some form of disruption in the early stages of embryonic development, likely mostly in the first 14 or 16 weeks of pregnancy. historically this disruption could occur purely due to the genetic predispositions of the parents, and while that's still true, microplastics are undoubtedly important in the modern presentation of GID due to how easily they can disrupt sexual development. research into the genetic components of GID is slower now because a lot of money and attention is going towards pseudoscience like the cass report or whatever the trump admin is calling their recent report on the matter. ime real researchers are dissuaded by both the difficulty of getting funding for unbiased research on the matter, and the risks involved with putting out unbiased research on a heavily politicized topic. a surprising amount of them have real ethical concerns regarding their research being used to harm trans people, which gives me a lot of hope for the future tbh... GID has existed forever but has definitely become more common now, though the rise in diagnoses due to availability of medical intervention/modern diagnostic criteria is still almost solely responsible for the seemingly increasing number of trans people. the genetic component seems to be related to the widespread endocrine disruption from pollutants, namely microplastics. that, the modern diet, children being born to older mothers, and the realities of post-industrial, post-war sex selection are among the most clearly related factors. chromosomal sex is determined at fertilization, but the development of sex characteristics relies on a complex network of genes that are heavily disrupted by microplastics. it feels like a buzzword, but microplastics will go down in history as the greatest public health crisis in human history and the species will be forever molded by its consequences. i often fear the grand consequences of institutionalized transphobia becoming the global norm. americans already fear that their children will "become" trans, like a blood omen representing the sins of modernity. hatred of trans people has further eroded the significance of blood relation. it's like sexism 2. instead of fearing your wife will give birth to a girl who can't continue your bloodline, even a son may be a "trojan woman" that's come to ensure your family name will not survive the next generation. people care so fucking much about that they'll beat their own children to death. i've seen it happen, and now i can't see cis people casually discussing "the trans issue" the same again. i'm tired of people being so distracted by cringe that they lose the ability to think about the logical conclusion of indulging emotions as caustic as disgust. i've done more than enough posting for today lmao i gotta run some errands. this is the first decent conversation i've had on an imageboard since before the lainchan cataclysm spawned arisuchan. i don't know the origins of petrarchan but i like talking to all of you. ttyl~

>>4161 >I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society. For example? I'm not denying that men are suffering and that collectively we're going to have to change the way we deal with men's issues if we want any meaningful progress, but most of the time I see someone talk about "men's suffering" it's used as a buzzword to express dislike of modern identity politics and more specifically, the shifting attitudes toward women. Some of it is just boomer grumbling/bitter men making their insecurities everyone else's problem, part of it is also legitimate criticism that people can't fully put into words, either because they're terrified of wrongthink or because ultimately they don't care that much about social issues, but they can intuitively tell something is not right. No progress comes out of any of that, though. Anecdotally (because I doubt there are any studies being published about it), people who have worked at gender clinics for years have seen how the main demographic seeking treatment has shifted from very young children, male more often than not, to teenage girls. It seems that, if anything, it's teenage girls and young women who want to opt out of how women are treated in our society. That group of people is also one of the most universally mocked, and even those critical of trans activism tend to justify that surge in transitions simply by saying that young women are more susceptible to social contagion and pressures; I think it's about time we afford them some more capacity for critical thought. Even if they reach the wrong conclusions about how they can alleviate the suffering they experience, I don't think most of them are simply being swayed by the "woke mob" when they transition to avoid being perceived as women. I'm a spergy young woman myself, and when I see videos or reddit posts made by detransitioning women, I can heavily relate to the experiences that led them to consider transitioning, though it seems that mental illness and specifically certain psychological profiles are more conducive to actually going forward with the physical transition. r/detrans is full of detransitioners or trans people questioning their trans status, and not all of them are young gays/lesbians who regret getting on cross sex hormones after a year or so. Some of them lived as trans people for many years and had been experiencing dysphoria since they can remember. Yet they still detransitioned. In some cases, the dysphoria had waned, but in others it remained. The common denominator is that they realized that transitioning was just a way to hide their underlying issues and did nothing to actually help them. >I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man? I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world. Hard agree. And this is what cements my belief that fundamentally there is no such thing as a trans person altogether. I understand that a fully transitioned stealth trans that wants nothing to do with queer activists is organically different than a they/them college student, and if I clocked one as trans I wouldn't say anything because I understand that they're just trying to live their life like anyone else, but at its core everyone lives and dies the sex that they are and no feeling or lived experience changes this. A good friend is dating a girl like that (non-binary university student), and I find it very funny that we're fairly similar physically, as in, short hair, plain unisex clothes, no makeup, etc., and those characteristics are seen by her as a means to signal that she's not really a woman, but a special third thing, while for me it's just a way to make daily life easier, with no repercussions on the sex I happen to belong to. It's ridiculous that it's even a controversial topic when it's one of the most straightforward idpol issues. Even intersex (DSD) conditions can be classified as either male or female.

>>4190

>>4228 >given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothin Your point about Bowie was difficult to understand, it sounds like your view is that it's OK for men to wear women's clothes but not transsexuals, doesn't make a lot of sense. >1) looks obviously male No, you do not genuinely believe this. You are pretending to believe it for rhetorical purposes. If H.S. walked down the street, literally no-one would see a 'masturbatory, grimy man' etc. >2) is a rampant fetishist No evidence: so I dismiss out of hand. >You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life You seem to regard all trannies as creeps, mentally ill, fetishistic etc. They are doing so much damage you even had to leave the 'gay scene' (famously NOT full of bizarre sex and definitely NOT the wellspring of the AIDS pandemic [death toll: 40 million])

>>4231 da but i don't think a tranny being homophobic helps your point that you're not a weirdo no one wants to be around and hunter schafer kept some weird journal about wanting to be raped and eaten or something so ya, def a fetishist

>>4266 Not homophobic to point out a fact. For a gay man to talk about transgenders getting their rocks off in bathrooms represents obvious projection. And Schafer's journal was just regular Tumblr attention-seeking, ironically the sort of thing radical feminists do a lot of. Doubtless if she were a natal women they would all coo over her and say-'you poor thing'...