obviously, it was a rotting corpse for a long time, but it did offer a place for self aware agps and a refugee from the overly woke lgbt spaces of the late 10s and early 20s. i was a newfag having only started using in 2022 but it truely just was a place that i felt surrounded by peers, and thats just gone. everyone fled to xitter, to discords, and everything public just gets raided with extremely basic ywnbaw posters i feel that unless a specific imageboard is created for trannies then its over, and it will never have any sort of staying power. everyone hates gays and trannies too much now ig to let us have a space on their site i hate having to use xitter, i hate having to use reddit, i hate having to use disc its just depressing looking back at only 2 years ago and seeing how good it was
I'm not trans but I read tttt from time to time and I always found it funny and sincere. Probably did more to make me empathise with tr00ns than any liberal browbeating. Sincerely sorry you lost your little place on the web.
I am not going to miss tttt. For someone like me it was the funniest place on the internet, but it was also the most painful. The pervasive toxic self-loathing of the community was both hilarious and agonizing, but the former kept overwhelming the latter, so some years ago I quit and never looked back.
That said, I'm sorry for your loss. I know what it's like to see a community you circle the drain. /tg/ never stopped being the best RPG forum on the internet, but the last decade or so has been like watching your favourite grandparent slide into senility. It used to be such a creative and vibrant place, people would make stuff, they would write and tell stories, they would make art, they would make entire RPGs. All of that is diminished, not entirely gone, but less than it was. Driven off by schizo posters shitting up threads, insane moderators who don't appreciate the things that build communities, and just the merciless churn of time.
If I had to mark the point in which /tg/ entered terminal decline it was when they punted Quests off the board. It caused a lot of creatives to flee, and the place was just never the same again.
Been feeling very much the same about the death of 4chan as a whole. I don't doubt that it'll eventually come back in some capacity but I don't really want it too.
>1735 is right about the delince into senility. I and a lot of others grew up on the site and never fully left it. I'm married with a career and looking to have kids but I would still find myself wandering the halls of 4chan frequently like it was an old neighborhood that's since gone to shit. I'll miss it but I hope it stays dead.
i was on /tttt/ since 2018. it was genuinely such a breath of fresh air for trans women that didn't subscribe to the delusional reddit hugbox or believe honscience or were actually attracted to men but were too beaten down by their families/repressed/internet brained to be stereotypical instagram tier husstusses.
the memes were great and the shared commisserating got me through being kicked out at 16 and coping with male bone structure, i made some good friends, even irl ones.
it got bad when all the more cutesy boymoder/greentext smut shit breached containment and the board was unrecognizable by 2022. it turned into boring agp reddit tier slop, with no good OC, constant hugboxxing, and boring threads. it also had popped up on the shartys radar so more targeted bait threads were common.
also the /tttt/ reddits fucking suck. everyone hugboxxes because it's like the worst of the tripfag epidemic again. sooooo much humblebragging my god lol. unfunny memes, unlikable people.
RIP K and I wish the best to anyone else who coped with the misery of life as a tranny by posting on /tttt/
Was on /tttt/ almost daily for six months or so starting in late 2021. It was bizarre seeing screenshots end up on places like IG, just to get likes from people I knew IRL. I forced myself off of it and was never really able to get addicted to it again, not that it was a great quality to begin with, but there was a noticeable decline after it started getting more and more notoriety on IG and Reddit.
Haven't thought about K in a long time : (
Anonymous :
75 days ago :
No.2077
>>4077
>>2077
yeah i started transitioning in 2013 back before we became a political talking point and while i'm not about to blame euphoria hons for america's descent into retardo-fascism i absolutely do blame them for oversaturating our public image with tonedeaf reddit shit. it's like a few dozen viral videos of unhinged spergs has completely overshadowed what trans people are actually like.
everyone i know has basically given up on trying to integrate with cis people because despite most trannies being behaviorally indistinguishable from your average autistic art hoe, everyone thinks we're skirt go spinny ladyboner hons despite never having interacted with trans people outside of videos their chud friend sends them. which sucks because now it's like the only ones they're exposed to are the freaks that *nobody* wants to be around.
i remember going to a /k/ meetup when i was really early in. i didn't pass, just kinda looked like a twink that was too feminine to not have something else going on. i got a few nasty comments but once they realized i was chill everything was fine. i made a few friends there and we got along really well, but around 2015/2016 they did a 180 and started treating me like shit because /pol/ told them to. i miss when the internet "wasn't real life", now it's like all the tangible experiences people have when disconnected from the internet exist only to inform how they interact with people online. they don't even work out or go shooting anymore, they just get drunk and share memes on telegram. bleak as fuck
While I am not trans, but I liked the /tttt/ humor and it made me sympathetic to trans (which I doubt I would be otherwise). In some respects it seemed far more sane than other spots like reddit, Tumblr, because of the emphasis on GD, rather than the constant 'euphoria' weirdness that's taken over.
You faggots should all kill theyselves
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/british-transport-police-supreme-court-nhs-kemi-badenoch-ehrc-b1223062.html
Transsexual women will be strip searched by males now in the UK. Is this something that many Brits really agree with? It is one thing to say you don't want barely-convincing trans women playing in women's sport (sometimes this seems a form of exhibitionism to me). It is quite another to say you want ordinary trans people to be treated like this when in custody. This actually goes further than, for instance, Florida under Ron DeSantis. The trans lobby has really fucked up in the UK.
Anonymous :
74 days ago :
No.2321
>>2348
>>2321
The British Transport Police deals with the railway network. Common reasons they might detain someone would be drugs, knives etc. Airports have different police
The upshot of the new rule is that MtF trans have to be searched by men, even if they have had genital surgery.
Tbh I don't really care if female employees are 'forced' to search trannies because that is literally their job, while the people being searched have got no choice in it. It's like a woman demanding a female gynecologist (totally fair) vs a female nurse saying she won't help a man with, say, a urinary catheter or perform a prostate exam where that's indicated.
I think it is just wrong to make a transitioned woman be searched by men (and vice versa). But I also think cis woman should be able to be refused being searched by a trans woman too. Unfortunately many people can't strike a balance and have to treat trans women as either exactly the same as cis women or as just men (probably as 'perverted' men)
>>2349
It's the logical outcome of allowing passengers to request being searched by someone of their own sex; the extension / reflect of it - this new rule - is to make it optional for airport employees to strip search travellers of the opposite sex.
It sounds crude but it protects actual women, and I do expect there will be room for individual butthole searchers of the female sex to opt-in to probing trannies. So it still comes down to the individuals and is really not an issue.
Okay, reading that shit it does sound like they may have overlooked that individual employees SHOULD be allowed to opt-in to probing the opposite sex on a "if anyone volunteers" basis. Without that it'd suck and be a too-simplistic, overly rigid rule.
But to not ever force female employees to search trannies is entirely fine.
Being trans is the symptom to a sickness of identity
A lucid and sane transgender is like a spry and vigorous leukemiac
They are rare, and they get rarer as time passes, and their condition deteriorates or occasionally they get better and stop exhibiting all symptoms bit by bit
There's a liveboard that used to be called brainworm.surgery, now it's called https://libpol.org/ (yeah... its gonna be renamed, I'm friends with the admin, he's a lil silly but his heart is in the right place) but it might have a bit of what you're looking for and ultimately communities are what you put into it. But it's been quite active since 4chan went down (the general liveposting /lgbt/ chatroom has had 24000 posts in the last day)
>>2321
It's the logical outcome of allowing passengers to request being searched by someone of their own sex; the extension / reflect of it - this new rule - is to make it optional for airport employees to strip search travellers of the opposite sex.
It sounds crude but it protects actual women, and I do expect there will be room for individual butthole searchers of the female sex to opt-in to probing trannies. So it still comes down to the individuals and is really not an issue.
The British Transport Police deals with the railway network. Common reasons they might detain someone would be drugs, knives etc. Airports have different police
The upshot of the new rule is that MtF trans have to be searched by men, even if they have had genital surgery.
Tbh I don't really care if female employees are 'forced' to search trannies because that is literally their job, while the people being searched have got no choice in it. It's like a woman demanding a female gynecologist (totally fair) vs a female nurse saying she won't help a man with, say, a urinary catheter or perform a prostate exam where that's indicated.
I think it is just wrong to make a transitioned woman be searched by men (and vice versa). But I also think cis woman should be able to be refused being searched by a trans woman too. Unfortunately many people can't strike a balance and have to treat trans women as either exactly the same as cis women or as just men (probably as 'perverted' men)
>>2321
It's the logical outcome of allowing passengers to request being searched by someone of their own sex; the extension / reflect of it - this new rule - is to make it optional for airport employees to strip search travellers of the opposite sex.
It sounds crude but it protects actual women, and I do expect there will be room for individual butthole searchers of the female sex to opt-in to probing trannies. So it still comes down to the individuals and is really not an issue.
>>2348>>2321
The British Transport Police deals with the railway network. Common reasons they might detain someone would be drugs, knives etc. Airports have different police
The upshot of the new rule is that MtF trans have to be searched by men, even if they have had genital surgery.
Tbh I don't really care if female employees are 'forced' to search trannies because that is literally their job, while the people being searched have got no choice in it. It's like a woman demanding a female gynecologist (totally fair) vs a female nurse saying she won't help a man with, say, a urinary catheter or perform a prostate exam where that's indicated.
I think it is just wrong to make a transitioned woman be searched by men (and vice versa). But I also think cis woman should be able to be refused being searched by a trans woman too. Unfortunately many people can't strike a balance and have to treat trans women as either exactly the same as cis women or as just men (probably as 'perverted' men)
I'm not trans but it saddens me to think that trans women will be treated presumptively as men. The trans lobbies should have kept out weirdos and perverts like, for instance, convicted murderers who want to move to a female prison
It hasn't even been more than a week God damn you faggots are such losers. Get a life. Ive been on 4chins for over 15 years and I haven't given recent events a single thought. Busy with hobbies and running a small business. GET A FUCKNG LIFE
>>2346
There's a liveboard that used to be called brainworm.surgery, now it's called https://libpol.org/ (yeah... its gonna be renamed, I'm friends with the admin, he's a lil silly but his heart is in the right place) but it might have a bit of what you're looking for and ultimately communities are what you put into it. But it's been quite active since 4chan went down (the general liveposting /lgbt/ chatroom has had 24000 posts in the last day)
>liveboard
that's fucking nuts
Anonymous :
71 days ago :
No.2668
>>2699
>>2668
If one of the richest and most famous trans today is still this visibly male, do these supposed "passing ones" really exist?
>>3082>>2668
They only pass in a photo, and only when a woman is not standing next to them. IRL you can see a clear difference because the proportions are different, and no surgery fixes that.
Anonymous :
71 days ago :
No.2687
>>2709
>>2687 Agree. But Trump needs to go further. He needs to ban them from any kind of existence, and make doing this perversion punishable by death. Only then will we claw back any kind of normalcy again from these groomers. If Trump does not do thos, and soon, he is their ally, and an enemy to civilization.
It's wild that supporting public fetishes like this is the number one issue for the left and any acknowledgement that people like OP exist is grounds for excommunication. "I'm a very mentally ill autistic boy... please treat me like a girl" is a big part of why Trump is president.
Anonymous :
71 days ago :
No.2699
>>2752
>>2699
Hunter Schafer is far from the richest, but could claim to be the most famous; her whole appeal to a certain set of men (and perhaps a smaller number of women) is that she has both male and female characteristics which creates an androgynous look. Androgyny is favoured in high fashion hence why she has been able to integrate herself into the fashion spehere.
She herself seems to want to be basically an androgyne rather than being completely a woman, which is why she not only doesn't want to get genital surgery but actually is happy to wear outfits etc which don't disguise her 'bulge'. It is very uncommon for trans women to be happy appearing at beaches in a bikini while 'untucked'...
Do you really not think any trans woman can pass? Seems unrealistic. If you get facial surgery and develop a female body type with hormones, have vocal training lessons and are not tall, you have a reasonable chance of passing.
>>3350>>2699
nigga looks like bladee
Anonymous :
71 days ago :
No.2709
>>2731
>>2709
He's obviously not going to do anything even remotely like that, you retard.
>>2737>>2709
Meds
>>2687
It's wild that supporting public fetishes like this is the number one issue for the left and any acknowledgement that people like OP exist is grounds for excommunication. "I'm a very mentally ill autistic boy... please treat me like a girl" is a big part of why Trump is president.
Agree. But Trump needs to go further. He needs to ban them from any kind of existence, and make doing this perversion punishable by death. Only then will we claw back any kind of normalcy again from these groomers. If Trump does not do thos, and soon, he is their ally, and an enemy to civilization.
>>2709
>>2687 Agree. But Trump needs to go further. He needs to ban them from any kind of existence, and make doing this perversion punishable by death. Only then will we claw back any kind of normalcy again from these groomers. If Trump does not do thos, and soon, he is their ally, and an enemy to civilization.
He's obviously not going to do anything even remotely like that, you retard.
>>2709
>>2687 Agree. But Trump needs to go further. He needs to ban them from any kind of existence, and make doing this perversion punishable by death. Only then will we claw back any kind of normalcy again from these groomers. If Trump does not do thos, and soon, he is their ally, and an enemy to civilization.
Meds
Anonymous :
71 days ago :
No.2752
>>2798
>>2752
I don't think passing is impossible, but the vast majority of trannies don't and never will. There's just too many differences between men and women. You can smash your face into a feminine form, but there's no way to deal with man shoulders or man hands.
>>2920>>2752 All those things are in great part because he is, by his own admission, a fetishist. But you are correct, if you have a female's face, develop a female body, and have a female's voice, you can pass as a woman. All you really need to have those things is to be born with the right chromosomes for them.
>>2699
>>2668
If one of the richest and most famous trans today is still this visibly male, do these supposed "passing ones" really exist?
Hunter Schafer is far from the richest, but could claim to be the most famous; her whole appeal to a certain set of men (and perhaps a smaller number of women) is that she has both male and female characteristics which creates an androgynous look. Androgyny is favoured in high fashion hence why she has been able to integrate herself into the fashion spehere.
She herself seems to want to be basically an androgyne rather than being completely a woman, which is why she not only doesn't want to get genital surgery but actually is happy to wear outfits etc which don't disguise her 'bulge'. It is very uncommon for trans women to be happy appearing at beaches in a bikini while 'untucked'...
Do you really not think any trans woman can pass? Seems unrealistic. If you get facial surgery and develop a female body type with hormones, have vocal training lessons and are not tall, you have a reasonable chance of passing.
apparently tranny thoughts can also cause depression
Anonymous :
70 days ago :
No.2798
>>2928
>>2798
True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things.
>the vast majority of trannies don't and never will
This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?)
>>2920
You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.
>>2752
>>2699
Hunter Schafer is far from the richest, but could claim to be the most famous; her whole appeal to a certain set of men (and perhaps a smaller number of women) is that she has both male and female characteristics which creates an androgynous look. Androgyny is favoured in high fashion hence why she has been able to integrate herself into the fashion spehere.
She herself seems to want to be basically an androgyne rather than being completely a woman, which is why she not only doesn't want to get genital surgery but actually is happy to wear outfits etc which don't disguise her 'bulge'. It is very uncommon for trans women to be happy appearing at beaches in a bikini while 'untucked'...
Do you really not think any trans woman can pass? Seems unrealistic. If you get facial surgery and develop a female body type with hormones, have vocal training lessons and are not tall, you have a reasonable chance of passing.
I don't think passing is impossible, but the vast majority of trannies don't and never will. There's just too many differences between men and women. You can smash your face into a feminine form, but there's no way to deal with man shoulders or man hands.
All the obsession with cosmetic surgery suggests a spiritually bereft lifestyle
Anonymous :
70 days ago :
No.2920
>>2928
>>2798
True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things.
>the vast majority of trannies don't and never will
This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?)
>>2920
You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.
>>2752
>>2699
Hunter Schafer is far from the richest, but could claim to be the most famous; her whole appeal to a certain set of men (and perhaps a smaller number of women) is that she has both male and female characteristics which creates an androgynous look. Androgyny is favoured in high fashion hence why she has been able to integrate herself into the fashion spehere.
She herself seems to want to be basically an androgyne rather than being completely a woman, which is why she not only doesn't want to get genital surgery but actually is happy to wear outfits etc which don't disguise her 'bulge'. It is very uncommon for trans women to be happy appearing at beaches in a bikini while 'untucked'...
Do you really not think any trans woman can pass? Seems unrealistic. If you get facial surgery and develop a female body type with hormones, have vocal training lessons and are not tall, you have a reasonable chance of passing.
All those things are in great part because he is, by his own admission, a fetishist. But you are correct, if you have a female's face, develop a female body, and have a female's voice, you can pass as a woman. All you really need to have those things is to be born with the right chromosomes for them.
>>2798
>>2752
I don't think passing is impossible, but the vast majority of trannies don't and never will. There's just too many differences between men and women. You can smash your face into a feminine form, but there's no way to deal with man shoulders or man hands.
True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things.
>the vast majority of trannies don't and never will
This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?)
>>2920>>2752 All those things are in great part because he is, by his own admission, a fetishist. But you are correct, if you have a female's face, develop a female body, and have a female's voice, you can pass as a woman. All you really need to have those things is to be born with the right chromosomes for them.
You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.
Hormones probably affect the mind and make them feel more masculine or feminine I would imagine. But yeah I don't really get it. As far as I am concerned they're people like anyone else and the government should stay the fuck out of their business. If someone tells me that they want me to call them a certain way it's no skin off my back and it's a way of respecting and connecting with them, I'll do it. It just seems like the decent thing to do.
>>2928
>>2798
True about shoulders and hands, but appearing as a particular sex is based on a gestalt impression. You could still pass with a man's hands, or a man's shoulders, a man's cadence or rhythm of speaking, or (only to a certain extent) with a male height, but not if you had more than one of these things.
>the vast majority of trannies don't and never will
This is because doctors are letting people transition even though they know, deep down, that they have few prospects of actually passing as the opposite sex. Also, a new ideology some trans have which is that appearance is wholly irrelevant (which doesn't explain why they try to pass at all--why take hormones, why not just stay exactly the same if it's all internal?)
>>2920
You can have these things with XY chromosomes too, but it takes effort and is not always possible. I would say most people would perceive Shafer as a woman.
see my response >>2934Hormones probably affect the mind and make them feel more masculine or feminine I would imagine. But yeah I don't really get it. As far as I am concerned they're people like anyone else and the government should stay the fuck out of their business. If someone tells me that they want me to call them a certain way it's no skin off my back and it's a way of respecting and connecting with them, I'll do it. It just seems like the decent thing to do.
It is not decent nor respectful to affirm an absolute delusion and project it forcefully upon society.
I went to tttt for the first time around 2016, I think, when I was "questioning my sexuality" and didn't know it catered solely to the T letter.
Because of what I saw, I instantly became team TERF and remain so to this day. Very happy with the UK ruling. Hope the US is next.
>>2972
I went to tttt for the first time around 2016, I think, when I was "questioning my sexuality" and didn't know it catered solely to the T letter.
Because of what I saw, I instantly became team TERF and remain so to this day. Very happy with the UK ruling. Hope the US is next.
tttt is far from typical of the T's, of course.
If you support transgender, you are insane, and should be thrown in a mental asylum. We will wipe out this perversion with the gun and the noose, it is the only way. People are turning against the degenerates, and rightfully so. We remember how you destroyed Weimar. We are wiping another era of degeneracy off the map.
>>2994
If you support transgender, you are insane, and should be thrown in a mental asylum. We will wipe out this perversion with the gun and the noose, it is the only way. People are turning against the degenerates, and rightfully so. We remember how you destroyed Weimar. We are wiping another era of degeneracy off the map.
You seem disturbed yourself.
Anonymous :
69 days ago :
No.3018
>>3056
>>3018
tttt culture started to fan out into the wider world via memes and screenshots shared on other social media sites.
If anything, /tttt/ is more reasonable than the average transwo/man, at least based on my IRL experiences, where they're every bit as psychotic and delusional as you see on reddit and Twitter.
At least /tttt/ can acknowledge they don't pass and are sexually turned on by wearing skirts.
>>3018
If anything, /tttt/ is more reasonable than the average transwo/man, at least based on my IRL experiences, where they're every bit as psychotic and delusional as you see on reddit and Twitter.
At least /tttt/ can acknowledge they don't pass and are sexually turned on by wearing skirts.
tttt culture started to fan out into the wider world via memes and screenshots shared on other social media sites.
Anonymous :
69 days ago :
No.3082
>>3102
>>3082
>They only pass in a photo
I feel like the proliferation of phone cameras is one of the lesser reasons for the explosion of trans identification. Trans women in particular can take as many selfies as they want and only share the images where they pass. This gives impressionable proto-trannies the idea that passing is common and they too can pass if they transition.
Anonymous :
69 days ago :
No.3089
>>3090
>>3089
also despite the rejection of the idea that "trans person" is a real thing and not a created subcultural identity, i say all this with sympathy
i don't know how to fix this in a way that is moral
>>3093>>3089
Some trannies transition because they are perverts and some transition because they want to become desexed eunuchs.
TERFs believe MtFs are all the first type and FtMs are all the latter, but it actually seems to be pretty evenly divided between males and females. The 'pervert' type of tranny seems to be getting more common among women if anything. If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish and those of the latter type would become nuns/monks or simply spinsters/confirmed bachelors.
The 'born this way' narrative is just as false for homosexuality. I can concede that a small number of people are biologically same sex attracted 'sexual inverts' (and those people are now often transitioning into the eunuch trans subtype) but the rest are just pervs that want a receptacle for their penis, or they lack the maturity needed to form a normal monogamous heterosexual relationship. Low class hypersexual gay men are not really attracted to men, they are attracted to easily available gay sex. High profile intelligent gay men like Sam Altman seem almost asexual in contrast and they clearly are too narcissistic to develop a normal other-oriented sexuality, which is why they tend to pick partners that look just like them and use surrogacy to get their mini-me sons.
The increase in abnormal sexuality (trannyism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, paraphilias etc) and the corresponding and often comorbid increase in psychopathology over the pasr few decades is undeniable but we’re supposed to pretend it’s not happening, and if it’s happening it’s actually good. I’d guess the causes include some combination of dysgenic fertility, environmental pollution and the collapse of sexual norms and taboos brought about by the sexual revolution.
it's interesting that an entire sexual/psychological subculture can be propped up entirely by state funding/promotion and by the fact that if you have an anime avatar and a cute name online you get positive attention
i don't think trannies are always "pretending" or are conscious sexual perverts. with a lot of younger ones it actually seems to be social contagion and "i actually hate sex because i was exposed to jewish pornography constantly nonstop since age 8". it seems if anything a flight from the sexual to say that you, a 15 year old, are actually a transmasc demisexual therian. that and it makes the adults in your life scramble to take care of you and validate you
>>3089
it's interesting that an entire sexual/psychological subculture can be propped up entirely by state funding/promotion and by the fact that if you have an anime avatar and a cute name online you get positive attention
i don't think trannies are always "pretending" or are conscious sexual perverts. with a lot of younger ones it actually seems to be social contagion and "i actually hate sex because i was exposed to jewish pornography constantly nonstop since age 8". it seems if anything a flight from the sexual to say that you, a 15 year old, are actually a transmasc demisexual therian. that and it makes the adults in your life scramble to take care of you and validate you
also despite the rejection of the idea that "trans person" is a real thing and not a created subcultural identity, i say all this with sympathy
i don't know how to fix this in a way that is moral
Anonymous :
69 days ago :
No.3093
>>3094
>>3093
Also samefag but I’d actually say that 'pervert' and 'eunuch' are the two dominant modes of sexuality today in general, not only among trannies. Normal sexuality is nearly nonexistent now.
>>3104>>3093
>If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish
why? maybe this is their fetish
>>3089
it's interesting that an entire sexual/psychological subculture can be propped up entirely by state funding/promotion and by the fact that if you have an anime avatar and a cute name online you get positive attention
i don't think trannies are always "pretending" or are conscious sexual perverts. with a lot of younger ones it actually seems to be social contagion and "i actually hate sex because i was exposed to jewish pornography constantly nonstop since age 8". it seems if anything a flight from the sexual to say that you, a 15 year old, are actually a transmasc demisexual therian. that and it makes the adults in your life scramble to take care of you and validate you
Some trannies transition because they are perverts and some transition because they want to become desexed eunuchs.
TERFs believe MtFs are all the first type and FtMs are all the latter, but it actually seems to be pretty evenly divided between males and females. The 'pervert' type of tranny seems to be getting more common among women if anything. If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish and those of the latter type would become nuns/monks or simply spinsters/confirmed bachelors.
The 'born this way' narrative is just as false for homosexuality. I can concede that a small number of people are biologically same sex attracted 'sexual inverts' (and those people are now often transitioning into the eunuch trans subtype) but the rest are just pervs that want a receptacle for their penis, or they lack the maturity needed to form a normal monogamous heterosexual relationship. Low class hypersexual gay men are not really attracted to men, they are attracted to easily available gay sex. High profile intelligent gay men like Sam Altman seem almost asexual in contrast and they clearly are too narcissistic to develop a normal other-oriented sexuality, which is why they tend to pick partners that look just like them and use surrogacy to get their mini-me sons.
The increase in abnormal sexuality (trannyism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, paraphilias etc) and the corresponding and often comorbid increase in psychopathology over the pasr few decades is undeniable but we’re supposed to pretend it’s not happening, and if it’s happening it’s actually good. I’d guess the causes include some combination of dysgenic fertility, environmental pollution and the collapse of sexual norms and taboos brought about by the sexual revolution.
>>3093
>>3089
Some trannies transition because they are perverts and some transition because they want to become desexed eunuchs.
TERFs believe MtFs are all the first type and FtMs are all the latter, but it actually seems to be pretty evenly divided between males and females. The 'pervert' type of tranny seems to be getting more common among women if anything. If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish and those of the latter type would become nuns/monks or simply spinsters/confirmed bachelors.
The 'born this way' narrative is just as false for homosexuality. I can concede that a small number of people are biologically same sex attracted 'sexual inverts' (and those people are now often transitioning into the eunuch trans subtype) but the rest are just pervs that want a receptacle for their penis, or they lack the maturity needed to form a normal monogamous heterosexual relationship. Low class hypersexual gay men are not really attracted to men, they are attracted to easily available gay sex. High profile intelligent gay men like Sam Altman seem almost asexual in contrast and they clearly are too narcissistic to develop a normal other-oriented sexuality, which is why they tend to pick partners that look just like them and use surrogacy to get their mini-me sons.
The increase in abnormal sexuality (trannyism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, paraphilias etc) and the corresponding and often comorbid increase in psychopathology over the pasr few decades is undeniable but we’re supposed to pretend it’s not happening, and if it’s happening it’s actually good. I’d guess the causes include some combination of dysgenic fertility, environmental pollution and the collapse of sexual norms and taboos brought about by the sexual revolution.
Also samefag but I’d actually say that 'pervert' and 'eunuch' are the two dominant modes of sexuality today in general, not only among trannies. Normal sexuality is nearly nonexistent now.
>>3082
>>2668
They only pass in a photo, and only when a woman is not standing next to them. IRL you can see a clear difference because the proportions are different, and no surgery fixes that.
>They only pass in a photo
I feel like the proliferation of phone cameras is one of the lesser reasons for the explosion of trans identification. Trans women in particular can take as many selfies as they want and only share the images where they pass. This gives impressionable proto-trannies the idea that passing is common and they too can pass if they transition.
>>3093
>>3089
Some trannies transition because they are perverts and some transition because they want to become desexed eunuchs.
TERFs believe MtFs are all the first type and FtMs are all the latter, but it actually seems to be pretty evenly divided between males and females. The 'pervert' type of tranny seems to be getting more common among women if anything. If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish and those of the latter type would become nuns/monks or simply spinsters/confirmed bachelors.
The 'born this way' narrative is just as false for homosexuality. I can concede that a small number of people are biologically same sex attracted 'sexual inverts' (and those people are now often transitioning into the eunuch trans subtype) but the rest are just pervs that want a receptacle for their penis, or they lack the maturity needed to form a normal monogamous heterosexual relationship. Low class hypersexual gay men are not really attracted to men, they are attracted to easily available gay sex. High profile intelligent gay men like Sam Altman seem almost asexual in contrast and they clearly are too narcissistic to develop a normal other-oriented sexuality, which is why they tend to pick partners that look just like them and use surrogacy to get their mini-me sons.
The increase in abnormal sexuality (trannyism, homosexuality, bisexuality, pedophilia, paraphilias etc) and the corresponding and often comorbid increase in psychopathology over the pasr few decades is undeniable but we’re supposed to pretend it’s not happening, and if it’s happening it’s actually good. I’d guess the causes include some combination of dysgenic fertility, environmental pollution and the collapse of sexual norms and taboos brought about by the sexual revolution.
>If transsexuality was not promoted, most people of the first type would fixate on a different fetish
why? maybe this is their fetish
Anonymous :
68 days ago :
No.3119
>>3379
>>3119
if you're an american/other anglo, you can just get your daughter a knife/gun, it's useful for other reasons anyway, and stay away from organized sports for girls anyway, mostly useless. take advantage of the individualist society you live in. also if you get fired for misgendering someone it's because you were a dweeb to begin with
>>2394
Bro, we passed this "it does no harm to call someone what they want to be called" sentiment circa 2018.
It used to be "I just want to pee", but that segued into a demand for passports changed, women's sports and prisons open to men, sex with lesbians, getting dicks out in women's locker rooms, getting people fired for not affirming them, and so on. We need to tell these men "no" for a change.
Anonymous :
68 days ago :
No.3155
>>3162
I'm gonna miss bullying /ftmg/ like you wouldn't believe...
>>3155
>why some amab queer think they suffered than afab.
Autistic people have it worse than the average foid, anon.
I just don't understand why some amab queer think they suffered than afab. the mindset of "I am the most victimized" and " I'm edgy and smart than normies" make me so sick
I'm gonna miss bullying /ftmg/ like you wouldn't believe...
>>3155
I just don't understand why some amab queer think they suffered than afab. the mindset of "I am the most victimized" and " I'm edgy and smart than normies" make me so sick
>why some amab queer think they suffered than afab.
Autistic people have it worse than the average foid, anon.
"I hope that more and more ordinary trans people will speak out against the worst excesses of trans activism as more and more trans people realize that extremist activism is increasing resentment and decreasing acceptance of trans people."
>Ray Blanchard @BlanchardPHD
>Oct 13, 2021
In retrospect--with the backslide in the US and now the UK--he was correct. Unheeded unfortunately. How much was sacrified for a few athletes who are probably just exhibitionists anyway?
>>3162
I'm gonna miss bullying /ftmg/ like you wouldn't believe...
>>3155
>why some amab queer think they suffered than afab.
Autistic people have it worse than the average foid, anon.
Jealous because FtMs are women who rejected their womanhood, meanwhile you can only dream of being one?
>>3279"I hope that more and more ordinary trans people will speak out against the worst excesses of trans activism as more and more trans people realize that extremist activism is increasing resentment and decreasing acceptance of trans people."
>Ray Blanchard @BlanchardPHD
>Oct 13, 2021
In retrospect--with the backslide in the US and now the UK--he was correct. Unheeded unfortunately. How much was sacrified for a few athletes who are probably just exhibitionists anyway?
I don't think 'ordinary trans people' even exist.
Recently I replied to a trans woman on reddit who was complaining about the new law in England about the definition of women and the prospect of not being allowed in women's bathrooms, even though this wasn't in an English speaking community. Basically I told him that you don't even need statistics to decide whether men should be allowed in female sports and bathrooms or not. Common sense and a minimal amount of respect for women is enough.
He replied saying trans women had nothing in common with men (lol), that no one would even attempt to commit sexual crimes in women's bathrooms in broad daylight (more and more reports of just that prove him wrong, but even then I can't believe how disingenuous you'd have to be to claim that something that has been happening since even before trans laws doesn't happen at all) and that a trans person that doesn't transition is missing something that the rest of humanity can take for granted, the same way someone who needs glasses could take them off but then they'd be at a disadvantage.
That last part is what annoyed me the most, because somehow we're supposed to believe that everyone is born with a gender-soul of sorts and the lucky majority can go about life
happily ever after but trans people just HAVE to irreversibly mutilate themselves, force themselves into opposite sex spaces and make everyone disrespect their own intelligence by having to call them by something they fundamentally aren't, in order to be able to feel like the rest of regular humans. He can choose to look like a woman, a woman did not choose to be born one. And yet women are the lucky ones for this? It's one thing to claim that the only effective treatment for alleviating gender dysphoria is physical transition, and a wildly different one to assert that trans people are just like the opposite sex in every meaningful way and that transition is a neutral or even positive process that renders them indistinguishable from a biological member of the sex they claim to be. At least transmeds were honest about having a mental illness.
Anonymous :
67 days ago :
No.3352
>>3370
>>3352
There are more sites where you can go be your obnoxious, freak self than there are where people can openly criticize your kind. Hopefully that's changing.
>>3384>>3352
Why are you objecting to these posts? They don't seem any more poorly thought out or low quality than the rest of the thread.
>>3388>>3352
>opens a thread specifically about trans people
>there's people talking about them
>gets mad
I don't want to be on twitter it reeks even from the outside. And while it's true that if you feel you can't criticize them even a little amongst friends, you need better friends, you're out of touch if you think that it can't ever get you in trouble irl.
>>3279
"I hope that more and more ordinary trans people will speak out against the worst excesses of trans activism as more and more trans people realize that extremist activism is increasing resentment and decreasing acceptance of trans people."
>Ray Blanchard @BlanchardPHD
>Oct 13, 2021
In retrospect--with the backslide in the US and now the UK--he was correct. Unheeded unfortunately. How much was sacrified for a few athletes who are probably just exhibitionists anyway?
>>3317
>>3337Recently I replied to a trans woman on reddit who was complaining about the new law in England about the definition of women and the prospect of not being allowed in women's bathrooms, even though this wasn't in an English speaking community. Basically I told him that you don't even need statistics to decide whether men should be allowed in female sports and bathrooms or not. Common sense and a minimal amount of respect for women is enough.
He replied saying trans women had nothing in common with men (lol), that no one would even attempt to commit sexual crimes in women's bathrooms in broad daylight (more and more reports of just that prove him wrong, but even then I can't believe how disingenuous you'd have to be to claim that something that has been happening since even before trans laws doesn't happen at all) and that a trans person that doesn't transition is missing something that the rest of humanity can take for granted, the same way someone who needs glasses could take them off but then they'd be at a disadvantage.
That last part is what annoyed me the most, because somehow we're supposed to believe that everyone is born with a gender-soul of sorts and the lucky majority can go about life
happily ever after but trans people just HAVE to irreversibly mutilate themselves, force themselves into opposite sex spaces and make everyone disrespect their own intelligence by having to call them by something they fundamentally aren't, in order to be able to feel like the rest of regular humans. He can choose to look like a woman, a woman did not choose to be born one. And yet women are the lucky ones for this? It's one thing to claim that the only effective treatment for alleviating gender dysphoria is physical transition, and a wildly different one to assert that trans people are just like the opposite sex in every meaningful way and that transition is a neutral or even positive process that renders them indistinguishable from a biological member of the sex they claim to be. At least transmeds were honest about having a mental illness.
>>3341>Gender is fluid
>But I also have gender dysphoria and can't choose my gender
i usually hate when people say this, but christ i'm not reading all this shit. go write in your diary about it or sign up for twitter. there are enough sites where you can argue about trans people already
>>3350>>2699
nigga looks like bladee
real
Anonymous :
67 days ago :
No.3370
>>3375
>>3370
fuck it all dude. if you're not a loser and have a life you don't need to worry about being vocally anti trans, because it won't affect you and no one who matters will dock you for it. if you let someone get in your head about, that's on you
>>3377>>3370
like this is an irl don't feed the trolls situation. they're psyoping you to believe you'll be disowned by society if you don't respect the pronouns (and through this they also catch people who are getting polarized against) but really, you can just ignore it and be better off
>>3352
There are more sites where you can go be your obnoxious, freak self than there are where people can openly criticize your kind. Hopefully that's changing.
>>3370
>>3352
There are more sites where you can go be your obnoxious, freak self than there are where people can openly criticize your kind. Hopefully that's changing.
fuck it all dude. if you're not a loser and have a life you don't need to worry about being vocally anti trans, because it won't affect you and no one who matters will dock you for it. if you let someone get in your head about, that's on you
>>3370
>>3352
There are more sites where you can go be your obnoxious, freak self than there are where people can openly criticize your kind. Hopefully that's changing.
like this is an irl don't feed the trolls situation. they're psyoping you to believe you'll be disowned by society if you don't respect the pronouns (and through this they also catch people who are getting polarized against) but really, you can just ignore it and be better off
>>3119
>>2394
Bro, we passed this "it does no harm to call someone what they want to be called" sentiment circa 2018.
It used to be "I just want to pee", but that segued into a demand for passports changed, women's sports and prisons open to men, sex with lesbians, getting dicks out in women's locker rooms, getting people fired for not affirming them, and so on. We need to tell these men "no" for a change.
if you're an american/other anglo, you can just get your daughter a knife/gun, it's useful for other reasons anyway, and stay away from organized sports for girls anyway, mostly useless. take advantage of the individualist society you live in. also if you get fired for misgendering someone it's because you were a dweeb to begin with
>>3352
Why are you objecting to these posts? They don't seem any more poorly thought out or low quality than the rest of the thread.
>>3352
>opens a thread specifically about trans people
>there's people talking about them
>gets mad
I don't want to be on twitter it reeks even from the outside. And while it's true that if you feel you can't criticize them even a little amongst friends, you need better friends, you're out of touch if you think that it can't ever get you in trouble irl.
Anonymous :
64 days ago :
No.3546
>>3982
>>3546
There’s dozens of studies like these, IDK why the obvious implication is so taboo
>Recent evidence indicates that homosexuals and bisexuals are, on average, at greater risk for psychiatric problems than heterosexuals. It is assumed with some supporting evidence that prejudice often experienced by nonheterosexuals makes them more vulnerable to psychiatric disorder, but there has been no investigation of alternative explanations. Here we used Eysenck's Neuroticism and Psychoticism scales as markers for psychiatric vulnerability and compared heterosexuals with nonheterosexuals in a community-based sample of identical and nonidentical twins aged between 19 and 52 years (N = 4904). Firstly, we tested whether apparent sexual orientation differences in psychiatric vulnerability simply mirrored sex differences-for our traits, this would predict nonheterosexual males having elevated Neuroticism scores as females do, and nonheterosexual females having elevated Psychoticism scores as males do. Our results contradicted this idea, with nonheterosexual men and women scoring significantly higher on Neuroticism and Psychoticism than their heterosexual counterparts, suggesting an overall elevation of psychiatric risk in nonheterosexuals. Secondly, we used our genetically informative sample to assess the viability of explanations invoking a common cause of both nonheterosexuality and psychiatric vulnerability. We found significant genetic correlation between sexual orientation and both Neuroticism and Psychoticism, but no corresponding environmental correlations, suggesting that if there is a common cause of both nonheterosexuality and psychiatric vulnerability it is likely to have a genetic basis rather than an environmental basis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19588238/
Anonymous :
62 days ago :
No.3808
>>3983
>>3808
Anecdotal, but I've heard this works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSAQyzPcl0
Are there any ways to deal with gender dysphoria which don't involve transitioning? Transitioning is not desirable in some cases, e.g., where people will not be able to pass
Anonymous :
59 days ago :
No.3982
>>3995
>>3982
It is denied because LGBT+ NGOs would like to use suicide rates amongst LGBTs as evidence for oppression, which means that the NGOs need to suck more monies from the government or big donors. They also think that it would encourage conversion therapy as it would give some reason for it other than disgust at homosexuality, but there's no reason to think people can be converted from neurotic to normal either. It's in your genes, and always about management
This is not to deny that genuine homo/transphobia does exist, but the great differences in e.g. personality disorders (especially BPD) between gays and straights is based on inborn characteristics. Personally, I remember having extreme parental separation anxiety as a young child and it seems like a lot of gay people are the same.
Interestingly, MtF trans who have personality disorders have similar ones as women who do (e.g. BPD, histrionic, dependent) while FtM have more male ones (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid).
>>3546
>Recent evidence indicates that homosexuals and bisexuals are, on average, at greater risk for psychiatric problems than heterosexuals. It is assumed with some supporting evidence that prejudice often experienced by nonheterosexuals makes them more vulnerable to psychiatric disorder, but there has been no investigation of alternative explanations. Here we used Eysenck's Neuroticism and Psychoticism scales as markers for psychiatric vulnerability and compared heterosexuals with nonheterosexuals in a community-based sample of identical and nonidentical twins aged between 19 and 52 years (N = 4904). Firstly, we tested whether apparent sexual orientation differences in psychiatric vulnerability simply mirrored sex differences-for our traits, this would predict nonheterosexual males having elevated Neuroticism scores as females do, and nonheterosexual females having elevated Psychoticism scores as males do. Our results contradicted this idea, with nonheterosexual men and women scoring significantly higher on Neuroticism and Psychoticism than their heterosexual counterparts, suggesting an overall elevation of psychiatric risk in nonheterosexuals. Secondly, we used our genetically informative sample to assess the viability of explanations invoking a common cause of both nonheterosexuality and psychiatric vulnerability. We found significant genetic correlation between sexual orientation and both Neuroticism and Psychoticism, but no corresponding environmental correlations, suggesting that if there is a common cause of both nonheterosexuality and psychiatric vulnerability it is likely to have a genetic basis rather than an environmental basis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19588238/
There’s dozens of studies like these, IDK why the obvious implication is so taboo
Anonymous :
59 days ago :
No.3983
>>3996
>>3983
I've tried to perform cognitive behavioral therapy-type exercises on myself, doesn't make the thoughts go away. I don't have an internal sense of really "being" the opposite gender as most transgender seem to, rather I have a sense of earnestly wanting I was/wishing I was born the opposite sex. Sucks being this way but I would guess it is more common than we hear.
>>3808
Are there any ways to deal with gender dysphoria which don't involve transitioning? Transitioning is not desirable in some cases, e.g., where people will not be able to pass
Anecdotal, but I've heard this works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSAQyzPcl0
>>3982
>>3546
There’s dozens of studies like these, IDK why the obvious implication is so taboo
It is denied because LGBT+ NGOs would like to use suicide rates amongst LGBTs as evidence for oppression, which means that the NGOs need to suck more monies from the government or big donors. They also think that it would encourage conversion therapy as it would give some reason for it other than disgust at homosexuality, but there's no reason to think people can be converted from neurotic to normal either. It's in your genes, and always about management
This is not to deny that genuine homo/transphobia does exist, but the great differences in e.g. personality disorders (especially BPD) between gays and straights is based on inborn characteristics. Personally, I remember having extreme parental separation anxiety as a young child and it seems like a lot of gay people are the same.
Interestingly, MtF trans who have personality disorders have similar ones as women who do (e.g. BPD, histrionic, dependent) while FtM have more male ones (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid).
>>3983
>>3808
Anecdotal, but I've heard this works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSAQyzPcl0
I've tried to perform cognitive behavioral therapy-type exercises on myself, doesn't make the thoughts go away. I don't have an internal sense of really "being" the opposite gender as most transgender seem to, rather I have a sense of earnestly wanting I was/wishing I was born the opposite sex. Sucks being this way but I would guess it is more common than we hear.
Anonymous :
56 days ago :
No.4077
>>4118
>>4077
It's a lack of gate-keeping within the transgender movement: a lack of gate-keeping is fatal to any political movement. Now the weird people have been allowed to control the discourse. It may be, unfortunately, that as it becomes harder to live as a trannie that high IQ, ordinary people will not transition and will repress, leaving the ones who have poor impulse control or nothing left to lose making up the majority. It may be that the movement splits and a more medicalized/scientific group of trans separate themselves from the crazy masses
As soon as I saw my real-life friends watching and sending on the "IT'S MA'AM!!" clip, I knew that trans acceptance was basically over. Plus Wi Spa.
Anyway hope you are doing ok there in US.
>>4128>>4077
I've met lots of trans people in real life. FtMs are often more normal, sometimes even chill, though typically awkward, autistic women who didn't fit in even before transitioning and definitely don't fit in after.
But the transwomen, even when not mega-hons, still have a grimy, masturbatory element to them, like they're just very, very male and there's something off-putting about them wearing female clothing in a way that's different from say, Harry Styles or David Bowie. Like you can tell it's not for comfort or fashion, there's just an indulgent sexual element to it and we're all supposed to pretend there isn't. If you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold.
>>2077
While I am not trans, but I liked the /tttt/ humor and it made me sympathetic to trans (which I doubt I would be otherwise). In some respects it seemed far more sane than other spots like reddit, Tumblr, because of the emphasis on GD, rather than the constant 'euphoria' weirdness that's taken over.
yeah i started transitioning in 2013 back before we became a political talking point and while i'm not about to blame euphoria hons for america's descent into retardo-fascism i absolutely do blame them for oversaturating our public image with tonedeaf reddit shit. it's like a few dozen viral videos of unhinged spergs has completely overshadowed what trans people are actually like.
everyone i know has basically given up on trying to integrate with cis people because despite most trannies being behaviorally indistinguishable from your average autistic art hoe, everyone thinks we're skirt go spinny ladyboner hons despite never having interacted with trans people outside of videos their chud friend sends them. which sucks because now it's like the only ones they're exposed to are the freaks that *nobody* wants to be around.
i remember going to a /k/ meetup when i was really early in. i didn't pass, just kinda looked like a twink that was too feminine to not have something else going on. i got a few nasty comments but once they realized i was chill everything was fine. i made a few friends there and we got along really well, but around 2015/2016 they did a 180 and started treating me like shit because /pol/ told them to. i miss when the internet "wasn't real life", now it's like all the tangible experiences people have when disconnected from the internet exist only to inform how they interact with people online. they don't even work out or go shooting anymore, they just get drunk and share memes on telegram. bleak as fuck
I still believe in you, 2013 tranny. We can be friends
Anonymous :
56 days ago :
No.4118
>>4127
>>4118
not trans myself but I do think it seems very likely that some sort of transmedicalist movement will go mainstream in this current political environment. it will appeal to the general public and policymakers as a 'common sense' synthesis that will appear as if it provides a path out of the culture war thicket.
key tenets:
* consolidation of the existence of trans people
* predication of trans identity on the medical condition of gender dysphoria and a genuine and wilful desire to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life
* scepticism if not outright dismissal of non-binary and non-orthodox 'trans' gender identities.
* repudiation of the notion that having unusually feminine qualities as a male or unusually masculine ones as a female necessarily implies a 'queer' or otherwise non-standard gender identity
* acceptance of biological sex as real and pertinent to certain aspects of society including physical sports, prisoner housing etc.
* a willingness to allow biological sex to be conflated with gendered terms in certain contexts to avoid offputting neologisms such as 'birthing person' or 'menstruator'.
I think (and hope) it is possible that something like this, with sufficient support from a subset of the trans community, could become the mainstream societal position on trans issues in the anglosphere. It would be good for politics if it stopped being a hot button issue, though god knows whatever came next would probably be just as tiresome. Maybe new atheism v2?
>>4160>>4118
the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131 , i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans.
>>4131 brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain.
the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial.
zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.
>>4077
>>2077
yeah i started transitioning in 2013 back before we became a political talking point and while i'm not about to blame euphoria hons for america's descent into retardo-fascism i absolutely do blame them for oversaturating our public image with tonedeaf reddit shit. it's like a few dozen viral videos of unhinged spergs has completely overshadowed what trans people are actually like.
everyone i know has basically given up on trying to integrate with cis people because despite most trannies being behaviorally indistinguishable from your average autistic art hoe, everyone thinks we're skirt go spinny ladyboner hons despite never having interacted with trans people outside of videos their chud friend sends them. which sucks because now it's like the only ones they're exposed to are the freaks that *nobody* wants to be around.
i remember going to a /k/ meetup when i was really early in. i didn't pass, just kinda looked like a twink that was too feminine to not have something else going on. i got a few nasty comments but once they realized i was chill everything was fine. i made a few friends there and we got along really well, but around 2015/2016 they did a 180 and started treating me like shit because /pol/ told them to. i miss when the internet "wasn't real life", now it's like all the tangible experiences people have when disconnected from the internet exist only to inform how they interact with people online. they don't even work out or go shooting anymore, they just get drunk and share memes on telegram. bleak as fuck
It's a lack of gate-keeping within the transgender movement: a lack of gate-keeping is fatal to any political movement. Now the weird people have been allowed to control the discourse. It may be, unfortunately, that as it becomes harder to live as a trannie that high IQ, ordinary people will not transition and will repress, leaving the ones who have poor impulse control or nothing left to lose making up the majority. It may be that the movement splits and a more medicalized/scientific group of trans separate themselves from the crazy masses
As soon as I saw my real-life friends watching and sending on the "IT'S MA'AM!!" clip, I knew that trans acceptance was basically over. Plus Wi Spa.
Anyway hope you are doing ok there in US.
Anonymous :
56 days ago :
No.4127
>>4131
>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
>>4118
>>4077
It's a lack of gate-keeping within the transgender movement: a lack of gate-keeping is fatal to any political movement. Now the weird people have been allowed to control the discourse. It may be, unfortunately, that as it becomes harder to live as a trannie that high IQ, ordinary people will not transition and will repress, leaving the ones who have poor impulse control or nothing left to lose making up the majority. It may be that the movement splits and a more medicalized/scientific group of trans separate themselves from the crazy masses
As soon as I saw my real-life friends watching and sending on the "IT'S MA'AM!!" clip, I knew that trans acceptance was basically over. Plus Wi Spa.
Anyway hope you are doing ok there in US.
not trans myself but I do think it seems very likely that some sort of transmedicalist movement will go mainstream in this current political environment. it will appeal to the general public and policymakers as a 'common sense' synthesis that will appear as if it provides a path out of the culture war thicket.
key tenets:
* consolidation of the existence of trans people
* predication of trans identity on the medical condition of gender dysphoria and a genuine and wilful desire to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life
* scepticism if not outright dismissal of non-binary and non-orthodox 'trans' gender identities.
* repudiation of the notion that having unusually feminine qualities as a male or unusually masculine ones as a female necessarily implies a 'queer' or otherwise non-standard gender identity
* acceptance of biological sex as real and pertinent to certain aspects of society including physical sports, prisoner housing etc.
* a willingness to allow biological sex to be conflated with gendered terms in certain contexts to avoid offputting neologisms such as 'birthing person' or 'menstruator'.
I think (and hope) it is possible that something like this, with sufficient support from a subset of the trans community, could become the mainstream societal position on trans issues in the anglosphere. It would be good for politics if it stopped being a hot button issue, though god knows whatever came next would probably be just as tiresome. Maybe new atheism v2?
Anonymous :
56 days ago :
No.4128
>>4131
>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
>>4162i was worried i'd hit a character limit. this is a good board,,,
>>4128
this just tells me you've only interacted with the sheltered redditor subspecies of tranny, who are probably the only ones who'd try to interact with you if only because they're not actively avoiding you. that or they never felt comfortable around you and unconsciously assumed the deer-in-headlights posture because the last time a cis person with your vibes tried to talk to them they said something fucked up. it comes down to this every time i hear a cis person "give their take" on trans people, they're always oblivious to the fact that the only trans people who'd give them the time of day are the ones who are so devoid of maturity, self control, and social experience that they've been spared the watershed moment all determined transsexuals have when they find out exactly how low on the totem pole we are.
my watershed moment is actually what led me to go to that /k/ meetup lol. i got jumped in high school really bad for being visibly faggy. ended up in the hospital, needed some reconstructive surgeries, took almost a year to be able to return to normal activity. i lived in arizona at the time, so obviously i bought a handgun for self defense and shoehorned guns into a hobby, mostly because i couldn't bear to be outside without knowing i could reasonably defend myself against three or more people. there was fuck all to do in arizona in the early/mid 2010s, and i got invited by a guy i knew was chill. some of my best friends back then were veterans, and since i knew there'd be a good few vets at the meetup i went because at least i'd be able to shoot some steel. the meetup itself was fine, i don't remember most of it because it was boring. that was the last time i sought out meeting internet people irl. arizona was so boring you have nooooo idea
>>4077
>>2077
yeah i started transitioning in 2013 back before we became a political talking point and while i'm not about to blame euphoria hons for america's descent into retardo-fascism i absolutely do blame them for oversaturating our public image with tonedeaf reddit shit. it's like a few dozen viral videos of unhinged spergs has completely overshadowed what trans people are actually like.
everyone i know has basically given up on trying to integrate with cis people because despite most trannies being behaviorally indistinguishable from your average autistic art hoe, everyone thinks we're skirt go spinny ladyboner hons despite never having interacted with trans people outside of videos their chud friend sends them. which sucks because now it's like the only ones they're exposed to are the freaks that *nobody* wants to be around.
i remember going to a /k/ meetup when i was really early in. i didn't pass, just kinda looked like a twink that was too feminine to not have something else going on. i got a few nasty comments but once they realized i was chill everything was fine. i made a few friends there and we got along really well, but around 2015/2016 they did a 180 and started treating me like shit because /pol/ told them to. i miss when the internet "wasn't real life", now it's like all the tangible experiences people have when disconnected from the internet exist only to inform how they interact with people online. they don't even work out or go shooting anymore, they just get drunk and share memes on telegram. bleak as fuck
I've met lots of trans people in real life. FtMs are often more normal, sometimes even chill, though typically awkward, autistic women who didn't fit in even before transitioning and definitely don't fit in after.
But the transwomen, even when not mega-hons, still have a grimy, masturbatory element to them, like they're just very, very male and there's something off-putting about them wearing female clothing in a way that's different from say, Harry Styles or David Bowie. Like you can tell it's not for comfort or fashion, there's just an indulgent sexual element to it and we're all supposed to pretend there isn't. If you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold.
Anonymous :
56 days ago :
No.4131
>>4133
>>4131
By "We will just have to agree to disagree..." in 2), I meant that society and trans people will just have to agree to disagree, not that you and I have to agree to disagree.
Personally, for me gender is a gestalt and I can't change the way I feel about someone based on their identification as trans, it's based on my impression of their appearance and behavior. I still use the pronouns they would wish, though, but I wouldn't if I felt their transitioning was actively harming others. On the other hand, I can know someone is trans and still perceive them as 'just another woman'/'just another man', if they satisfy the gestalt.
TERFs call this sex stereotyping, trans people call it transphobic, but everyone does this.
>>4160>>4118
the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131 , i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans.
>>4131 brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain.
the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial.
zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.
>>4228>>4131
Preposterous comment given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothing and you responded with Hunter Schaefer who 1) looks obviously male and 2) is a rampant fetishist.
I worked for a large bookstore chain in middle management and was active in my city's arts scene as well as the gay scene. I've since left all 3, the latter two because of mentally ill trans people taking over and boring the hell out of me.
Think I'm going to exit this thread as well. You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life.
>>4127
>>4118
not trans myself but I do think it seems very likely that some sort of transmedicalist movement will go mainstream in this current political environment. it will appeal to the general public and policymakers as a 'common sense' synthesis that will appear as if it provides a path out of the culture war thicket.
key tenets:
* consolidation of the existence of trans people
* predication of trans identity on the medical condition of gender dysphoria and a genuine and wilful desire to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life
* scepticism if not outright dismissal of non-binary and non-orthodox 'trans' gender identities.
* repudiation of the notion that having unusually feminine qualities as a male or unusually masculine ones as a female necessarily implies a 'queer' or otherwise non-standard gender identity
* acceptance of biological sex as real and pertinent to certain aspects of society including physical sports, prisoner housing etc.
* a willingness to allow biological sex to be conflated with gendered terms in certain contexts to avoid offputting neologisms such as 'birthing person' or 'menstruator'.
I think (and hope) it is possible that something like this, with sufficient support from a subset of the trans community, could become the mainstream societal position on trans issues in the anglosphere. It would be good for politics if it stopped being a hot button issue, though god knows whatever came next would probably be just as tiresome. Maybe new atheism v2?
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128>>4077
I've met lots of trans people in real life. FtMs are often more normal, sometimes even chill, though typically awkward, autistic women who didn't fit in even before transitioning and definitely don't fit in after.
But the transwomen, even when not mega-hons, still have a grimy, masturbatory element to them, like they're just very, very male and there's something off-putting about them wearing female clothing in a way that's different from say, Harry Styles or David Bowie. Like you can tell it's not for comfort or fashion, there's just an indulgent sexual element to it and we're all supposed to pretend there isn't. If you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold.
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
>>4131
>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
By "We will just have to agree to disagree..." in 2), I meant that society and trans people will just have to agree to disagree, not that you and I have to agree to disagree.
Personally, for me gender is a gestalt and I can't change the way I feel about someone based on their identification as trans, it's based on my impression of their appearance and behavior. I still use the pronouns they would wish, though, but I wouldn't if I felt their transitioning was actively harming others. On the other hand, I can know someone is trans and still perceive them as 'just another woman'/'just another man', if they satisfy the gestalt.
TERFs call this sex stereotyping, trans people call it transphobic, but everyone does this.
Anonymous :
55 days ago :
No.4160
>>4161
I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man?
I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world
>>4160
The trans I'm friends with spend way too much time on the internet and are kind of gross in some of the things they say. Sometimes they just start rambling about their nebulous disabilities and it's very exhausting. The "IT'S MA'AM" stuff is definitely not very real and most of those videos are probably just farming ragebait anyway. The compilation videos you're referring to are consumed by the elderly (millenials/boomers)
>>4118
>>4077
It's a lack of gate-keeping within the transgender movement: a lack of gate-keeping is fatal to any political movement. Now the weird people have been allowed to control the discourse. It may be, unfortunately, that as it becomes harder to live as a trannie that high IQ, ordinary people will not transition and will repress, leaving the ones who have poor impulse control or nothing left to lose making up the majority. It may be that the movement splits and a more medicalized/scientific group of trans separate themselves from the crazy masses
As soon as I saw my real-life friends watching and sending on the "IT'S MA'AM!!" clip, I knew that trans acceptance was basically over. Plus Wi Spa.
Anyway hope you are doing ok there in US.
the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
, i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans.
>>4131>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain.
the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial.
zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.
Anonymous :
55 days ago :
No.4161
>>4163
>>4161
yeah i don't expect your trans friends to go outside any time soon. in the midwest and on the east coast at least, the gross rambling shutin seems to be the most common kind of trans woman. in most cases they're just insanely depressed, trying to dissociate and distract themselves from the existential dread instilled by complete disenfranchisement. you gotta have a thick hide to be trans and live any sort of fulfilling life; most people lack that but get by without directly receiving too much aggression because of our society's insane amount of tolerance for antisocial behavior. trans women are one of those minorities that are absolutely not afforded that flexibility. we're going to see a lot of strong-willed trans women gain notoriety in the next few years, but for every one of them there's a few hundred hylics that can't stand being away from their triple monitor setup running discord, final fantasy, and valorant without either having a panic attack (if they grew up poor) or throwing a shockingly impotent hissy fit (if they grew up rich). the main reason i care enough to write all this shit is because the internet is the main place cis people interact with trans people, and the only voices you can hear are coming from those kinda people.
the "not feeling like a man/woman" thing is the result of the aforementioned nervous system/HPG axis mismatch. tl;dr, the core of GID is lies somewhere in the development of the nervous system as the result of some form of disruption in the early stages of embryonic development, likely mostly in the first 14 or 16 weeks of pregnancy.
historically this disruption could occur purely due to the genetic predispositions of the parents, and while that's still true, microplastics are undoubtedly important in the modern presentation of GID due to how easily they can disrupt sexual development. research into the genetic components of GID is slower now because a lot of money and attention is going towards pseudoscience like the cass report or whatever the trump admin is calling their recent report on the matter. ime real researchers are dissuaded by both the difficulty of getting funding for unbiased research on the matter, and the risks involved with putting out unbiased research on a heavily politicized topic. a surprising amount of them have real ethical concerns regarding their research being used to harm trans people, which gives me a lot of hope for the future tbh...
GID has existed forever but has definitely become more common now, though the rise in diagnoses due to availability of medical intervention/modern diagnostic criteria is still almost solely responsible for the seemingly increasing number of trans people. the genetic component seems to be related to the widespread endocrine disruption from pollutants, namely microplastics. that, the modern diet, children being born to older mothers, and the realities of post-industrial, post-war sex selection are among the most clearly related factors. chromosomal sex is determined at fertilization, but the development of sex characteristics relies on a complex network of genes that are heavily disrupted by microplastics. it feels like a buzzword, but microplastics will go down in history as the greatest public health crisis in human history and the species will be forever molded by its consequences. i often fear the grand consequences of institutionalized transphobia becoming the global norm. americans already fear that their children will "become" trans, like a blood omen representing the sins of modernity. hatred of trans people has further eroded the significance of blood relation. it's like sexism 2. instead of fearing your wife will give birth to a girl who can't continue your bloodline, even a son may be a "trojan woman" that's come to ensure your family name will not survive the next generation. people care so fucking much about that they'll beat their own children to death. i've seen it happen, and now i can't see cis people casually discussing "the trans issue" the same again. i'm tired of people being so distracted by cringe that they lose the ability to think about the logical conclusion of indulging emotions as caustic as disgust.
i've done more than enough posting for today lmao i gotta run some errands. this is the first decent conversation i've had on an imageboard since before the lainchan cataclysm spawned arisuchan. i don't know the origins of petrarchan but i like talking to all of you. ttyl~
>>4186>>4161
>I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
For example? I'm not denying that men are suffering and that collectively we're going to have to change the way we deal with men's issues if we want any meaningful progress, but most of the time I see someone talk about "men's suffering" it's used as a buzzword to express dislike of modern identity politics and more specifically, the shifting attitudes toward women. Some of it is just boomer grumbling/bitter men making their insecurities everyone else's problem, part of it is also legitimate criticism that people can't fully put into words, either because they're terrified of wrongthink or because ultimately they don't care that much about social issues, but they can intuitively tell something is not right. No progress comes out of any of that, though.
Anecdotally (because I doubt there are any studies being published about it), people who have worked at gender clinics for years have seen how the main demographic seeking treatment has shifted from very young children, male more often than not, to teenage girls. It seems that, if anything, it's teenage girls and young women who want to opt out of how women are treated in our society. That group of people is also one of the most universally mocked, and even those critical of trans activism tend to justify that surge in transitions simply by saying that young women are more susceptible to social contagion and pressures; I think it's about time we afford them some more capacity for critical thought. Even if they reach the wrong conclusions about how they can alleviate the suffering they experience, I don't think most of them are simply being swayed by the "woke mob" when they transition to avoid being perceived as women.
I'm a spergy young woman myself, and when I see videos or reddit posts made by detransitioning women, I can heavily relate to the experiences that led them to consider transitioning, though it seems that mental illness and specifically certain psychological profiles are more conducive to actually going forward with the physical transition. r/detrans is full of detransitioners or trans people questioning their trans status, and not all of them are young gays/lesbians who regret getting on cross sex hormones after a year or so. Some of them lived as trans people for many years and had been experiencing dysphoria since they can remember. Yet they still detransitioned. In some cases, the dysphoria had waned, but in others it remained. The common denominator is that they realized that transitioning was just a way to hide their underlying issues and did nothing to actually help them.
>I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man? I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world.
Hard agree. And this is what cements my belief that fundamentally there is no such thing as a trans person altogether. I understand that a fully transitioned stealth trans that wants nothing to do with queer activists is organically different than a they/them college student, and if I clocked one as trans I wouldn't say anything because I understand that they're just trying to live their life like anyone else, but at its core everyone lives and dies the sex that they are and no feeling or lived experience changes this. A good friend is dating a girl like that (non-binary university student), and I find it very funny that we're fairly similar physically, as in, short hair, plain unisex clothes, no makeup, etc., and those characteristics are seen by her as a means to signal that she's not really a woman, but a special third thing, while for me it's just a way to make daily life easier, with no repercussions on the sex I happen to belong to. It's ridiculous that it's even a controversial topic when it's one of the most straightforward idpol issues. Even intersex (DSD) conditions can be classified as either male or female.
I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man?
I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world
>>4160
>>4118
the tricky part is that the transgender movement is secondary to transsexuality as a medical condition. both transgender and transsexual are words with fluid definitions these days, but i rigidly define the former as an umbrella term for people who, in daily life, find that the expectations placed on them due to their sex is incongruent with how they naturally desire to act, and the latter referring to anyone who is altering their physicality/body composition in order to address a painful veil of dissociation and anxiety relating to a biological incompatibility between their nervous system and their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. few people use these definitions, but current definitions for both fail to explain why transitioning/hormone therapy is important (other than "because it makes me feel good"), and the current medical consensus treats the nervous system/HPG axis mismatch as a given. to answer >>4131 , i don't think treatment of gender dysphoria should require anyone to present as the opposite gender in all parts of life. whenever i think of a requirement or compulsion for trans people to adhere to one gender or another, i think of the archaic "lived experience" tests that doctors would require for trans people who want to start HRT, where you're required to have "lived as a woman" for anywhere from six months to several years before being diagnosed with GID. at best, it's a humiliation ritual, and speaking from experience, it often ends with great physical harm coming to those who attempt it. it seems obvious to me that if you give someone born male a proper regimen of testosterone blockers and estrogen, they're going to react very very badly to it if they're cis. we *know* men get terribly depressed if they have low T, add high E to that and it becomes obvious they're not trans.
>>4131 brought up SEA; as an example, only a minority of thai transgender women refer to themselves as a "second kind of woman" (phuying praphet song). from what i've been able to glean, there isn't much of need for a conciliatory third gender over there because transsexualism had been recognized as "a thing that exists" and "not a reason to build death camps" well before industrialization was able to affect their gender norms. thailand is really special in that way, and i know enough about that to know their integration of trans people is not repeatable elsewhere for reasons i am not qualified to explain.
the "IT'S MA'AM" shit is what gets me. i have never once encountered someone like that IRL. i've almost exclusively interacted with MtFs for a few years now, and before that i still interacted with the broader trans community almost as often as i did society at large. i've met cringey poorly socialized gooners, but they were always awkward and preferred isolation. the kind of trans women that end up in cringe compilations are such an astronomically small minority that gatekeeping won't do anything, the only reason anyone's aware of them is because people *love* to click ragebait headlines and share them to their friends, and this obsession with cruelty and schadenfreude was exploited in order to bring about the shitshow that america is now. it was *always* artificial.
zoomers won't understand but this is like if mainstream media in the late 2000s/early 2010s started reporting on autistic lolcows in a coordinated effort to positively associate anti-autistic legislation with high approval ratings. it's like how liberals have been the "fiscal conservatives that hate guns" party ever since reagan broke them; like guns, it is just another controlled topic that can be manipulated by both parties without meaningfully affecting what keeps the nation's gears turning. internally, the trans community could really use some gatekeeping in certain areas. between trans people and society, the propaganda engine that's using us as the smokescreen of the week needs to be named and recognized, if only so we can stop grifters and geriatrics from stripping the nation's wires so they can sell the copper. until then we won't even be able to agree on a shared reality, much less on what is and isn't acceptable for a law-abiding minority of people comparable in size to the global population of gingers.
The trans I'm friends with spend way too much time on the internet and are kind of gross in some of the things they say. Sometimes they just start rambling about their nebulous disabilities and it's very exhausting. The "IT'S MA'AM" stuff is definitely not very real and most of those videos are probably just farming ragebait anyway. The compilation videos you're referring to are consumed by the elderly (millenials/boomers)
i was worried i'd hit a character limit. this is a good board,,,
>>4128
>>4077
I've met lots of trans people in real life. FtMs are often more normal, sometimes even chill, though typically awkward, autistic women who didn't fit in even before transitioning and definitely don't fit in after.
But the transwomen, even when not mega-hons, still have a grimy, masturbatory element to them, like they're just very, very male and there's something off-putting about them wearing female clothing in a way that's different from say, Harry Styles or David Bowie. Like you can tell it's not for comfort or fashion, there's just an indulgent sexual element to it and we're all supposed to pretend there isn't. If you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold.
this just tells me you've only interacted with the sheltered redditor subspecies of tranny, who are probably the only ones who'd try to interact with you if only because they're not actively avoiding you. that or they never felt comfortable around you and unconsciously assumed the deer-in-headlights posture because the last time a cis person with your vibes tried to talk to them they said something fucked up. it comes down to this every time i hear a cis person "give their take" on trans people, they're always oblivious to the fact that the only trans people who'd give them the time of day are the ones who are so devoid of maturity, self control, and social experience that they've been spared the watershed moment all determined transsexuals have when they find out exactly how low on the totem pole we are.
my watershed moment is actually what led me to go to that /k/ meetup lol. i got jumped in high school really bad for being visibly faggy. ended up in the hospital, needed some reconstructive surgeries, took almost a year to be able to return to normal activity. i lived in arizona at the time, so obviously i bought a handgun for self defense and shoehorned guns into a hobby, mostly because i couldn't bear to be outside without knowing i could reasonably defend myself against three or more people. there was fuck all to do in arizona in the early/mid 2010s, and i got invited by a guy i knew was chill. some of my best friends back then were veterans, and since i knew there'd be a good few vets at the meetup i went because at least i'd be able to shoot some steel. the meetup itself was fine, i don't remember most of it because it was boring. that was the last time i sought out meeting internet people irl. arizona was so boring you have nooooo idea
>>4161
I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man?
I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world
>>4160
The trans I'm friends with spend way too much time on the internet and are kind of gross in some of the things they say. Sometimes they just start rambling about their nebulous disabilities and it's very exhausting. The "IT'S MA'AM" stuff is definitely not very real and most of those videos are probably just farming ragebait anyway. The compilation videos you're referring to are consumed by the elderly (millenials/boomers)
yeah i don't expect your trans friends to go outside any time soon. in the midwest and on the east coast at least, the gross rambling shutin seems to be the most common kind of trans woman. in most cases they're just insanely depressed, trying to dissociate and distract themselves from the existential dread instilled by complete disenfranchisement. you gotta have a thick hide to be trans and live any sort of fulfilling life; most people lack that but get by without directly receiving too much aggression because of our society's insane amount of tolerance for antisocial behavior. trans women are one of those minorities that are absolutely not afforded that flexibility. we're going to see a lot of strong-willed trans women gain notoriety in the next few years, but for every one of them there's a few hundred hylics that can't stand being away from their triple monitor setup running discord, final fantasy, and valorant without either having a panic attack (if they grew up poor) or throwing a shockingly impotent hissy fit (if they grew up rich). the main reason i care enough to write all this shit is because the internet is the main place cis people interact with trans people, and the only voices you can hear are coming from those kinda people.
the "not feeling like a man/woman" thing is the result of the aforementioned nervous system/HPG axis mismatch. tl;dr, the core of GID is lies somewhere in the development of the nervous system as the result of some form of disruption in the early stages of embryonic development, likely mostly in the first 14 or 16 weeks of pregnancy.
historically this disruption could occur purely due to the genetic predispositions of the parents, and while that's still true, microplastics are undoubtedly important in the modern presentation of GID due to how easily they can disrupt sexual development. research into the genetic components of GID is slower now because a lot of money and attention is going towards pseudoscience like the cass report or whatever the trump admin is calling their recent report on the matter. ime real researchers are dissuaded by both the difficulty of getting funding for unbiased research on the matter, and the risks involved with putting out unbiased research on a heavily politicized topic. a surprising amount of them have real ethical concerns regarding their research being used to harm trans people, which gives me a lot of hope for the future tbh...
GID has existed forever but has definitely become more common now, though the rise in diagnoses due to availability of medical intervention/modern diagnostic criteria is still almost solely responsible for the seemingly increasing number of trans people. the genetic component seems to be related to the widespread endocrine disruption from pollutants, namely microplastics. that, the modern diet, children being born to older mothers, and the realities of post-industrial, post-war sex selection are among the most clearly related factors. chromosomal sex is determined at fertilization, but the development of sex characteristics relies on a complex network of genes that are heavily disrupted by microplastics. it feels like a buzzword, but microplastics will go down in history as the greatest public health crisis in human history and the species will be forever molded by its consequences. i often fear the grand consequences of institutionalized transphobia becoming the global norm. americans already fear that their children will "become" trans, like a blood omen representing the sins of modernity. hatred of trans people has further eroded the significance of blood relation. it's like sexism 2. instead of fearing your wife will give birth to a girl who can't continue your bloodline, even a son may be a "trojan woman" that's come to ensure your family name will not survive the next generation. people care so fucking much about that they'll beat their own children to death. i've seen it happen, and now i can't see cis people casually discussing "the trans issue" the same again. i'm tired of people being so distracted by cringe that they lose the ability to think about the logical conclusion of indulging emotions as caustic as disgust.
i've done more than enough posting for today lmao i gotta run some errands. this is the first decent conversation i've had on an imageboard since before the lainchan cataclysm spawned arisuchan. i don't know the origins of petrarchan but i like talking to all of you. ttyl~
>>4161
I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man?
I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world
>>4160
The trans I'm friends with spend way too much time on the internet and are kind of gross in some of the things they say. Sometimes they just start rambling about their nebulous disabilities and it's very exhausting. The "IT'S MA'AM" stuff is definitely not very real and most of those videos are probably just farming ragebait anyway. The compilation videos you're referring to are consumed by the elderly (millenials/boomers)
>I'm convinced a lot of the MTFs are simply men who want to opt out of the suffering and trauma inflicted on men in our society.
For example? I'm not denying that men are suffering and that collectively we're going to have to change the way we deal with men's issues if we want any meaningful progress, but most of the time I see someone talk about "men's suffering" it's used as a buzzword to express dislike of modern identity politics and more specifically, the shifting attitudes toward women. Some of it is just boomer grumbling/bitter men making their insecurities everyone else's problem, part of it is also legitimate criticism that people can't fully put into words, either because they're terrified of wrongthink or because ultimately they don't care that much about social issues, but they can intuitively tell something is not right. No progress comes out of any of that, though.
Anecdotally (because I doubt there are any studies being published about it), people who have worked at gender clinics for years have seen how the main demographic seeking treatment has shifted from very young children, male more often than not, to teenage girls. It seems that, if anything, it's teenage girls and young women who want to opt out of how women are treated in our society. That group of people is also one of the most universally mocked, and even those critical of trans activism tend to justify that surge in transitions simply by saying that young women are more susceptible to social contagion and pressures; I think it's about time we afford them some more capacity for critical thought. Even if they reach the wrong conclusions about how they can alleviate the suffering they experience, I don't think most of them are simply being swayed by the "woke mob" when they transition to avoid being perceived as women.
I'm a spergy young woman myself, and when I see videos or reddit posts made by detransitioning women, I can heavily relate to the experiences that led them to consider transitioning, though it seems that mental illness and specifically certain psychological profiles are more conducive to actually going forward with the physical transition. r/detrans is full of detransitioners or trans people questioning their trans status, and not all of them are young gays/lesbians who regret getting on cross sex hormones after a year or so. Some of them lived as trans people for many years and had been experiencing dysphoria since they can remember. Yet they still detransitioned. In some cases, the dysphoria had waned, but in others it remained. The common denominator is that they realized that transitioning was just a way to hide their underlying issues and did nothing to actually help them.
>I also don't understand what they mean by "I've never really felt like a man/woman". How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man? I really don't understand the whole thing to be honest, it feels like an illness that is predicated on already having a certain understanding/lens of the world.
Hard agree. And this is what cements my belief that fundamentally there is no such thing as a trans person altogether. I understand that a fully transitioned stealth trans that wants nothing to do with queer activists is organically different than a they/them college student, and if I clocked one as trans I wouldn't say anything because I understand that they're just trying to live their life like anyone else, but at its core everyone lives and dies the sex that they are and no feeling or lived experience changes this. A good friend is dating a girl like that (non-binary university student), and I find it very funny that we're fairly similar physically, as in, short hair, plain unisex clothes, no makeup, etc., and those characteristics are seen by her as a means to signal that she's not really a woman, but a special third thing, while for me it's just a way to make daily life easier, with no repercussions on the sex I happen to belong to. It's ridiculous that it's even a controversial topic when it's one of the most straightforward idpol issues. Even intersex (DSD) conditions can be classified as either male or female.
>4161
>How do they conceptualize people "feeling" like a man or woman? I don't wake up every morning with my dick in my hand ready to punch holes in drywall, am I not a man?
maybe you do in a lot of subtle ways but take them for granted because they're not challenged like phantom limb effect only comes into effect when you've lost one
or it's like having an innate inclination for something like a hobby that you have to turn into a lifelong endevour
Anonymous :
54 days ago :
No.4228
>>4231
>>4228
>given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothin
Your point about Bowie was difficult to understand, it sounds like your view is that it's OK for men to wear women's clothes but not transsexuals, doesn't make a lot of sense.
>1) looks obviously male
No, you do not genuinely believe this. You are pretending to believe it for rhetorical purposes. If H.S. walked down the street, literally no-one would see a 'masturbatory, grimy man' etc.
>2) is a rampant fetishist
No evidence: so I dismiss out of hand.
>You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life
You seem to regard all trannies as creeps, mentally ill, fetishistic etc. They are doing so much damage you even had to leave the 'gay scene' (famously NOT full of bizarre sex and definitely NOT the wellspring of the AIDS pandemic [death toll: 40 million])
>>4131
>>4127
One aspect of the crackdown on trans in USA/UK is that, as sad as it is, it'll have a Darwinian effect on the movement and force it to split/adapt/evolve as needed. (I still think that some crackdown was inevitable, what with non-transitioned 'MTF' prisoners in women's prisoners, which is one of the stupidest things of all time, and which most normal trans people would find stupid too.) My thinking about the future of the movement is on similar lines to yours, however you need to consider the following:
1) The transmedicalist community is essentially constituted of highly dysphoric trans people who view dysphoria as a sine qua non of trans-ness. It is thoroughly repulsed by the behavior of 'tucutes' (non-dysphoric trans people) and wants doctors to gatekeep more in order to prevent the 'true trans' from being conflated with them. It is put off by non-binary identities and feel no kinship with them
2) Transmedicalists still view themselves as 'really' men or 'really' women deep down, on the inside. In general, they do not assent to the idea that they are 'just men, who feel better living as women' (or vice versa). They will make the same demands upon others to view them as genuinely men/women. This runs into your fifth point. We will just have to agree to disagree: to say that we can treat a trans person as their new gender in most but not all circumstances.
3) Trans people are having anti-discrimination laws turned against them, be it the Equality Act in the UK (which is interpreted now to mandate shopowners to actively forbid transgender people from using the toilets of their proclaimed gender), or Title IX in the US (which is being used to exercise managerial control from the top over universities and schools). Going forward, these rules should be repealed. Trans people should ally with conservatives to stop centralised, quasi-Marxist bureaucracies controlling random cafés and pubs' toilet arrangements. Let each, say, spa make its own decision about whether, and in what circumstances, to allow transgender people. It is ironic that the NGO industry and legal world into which trans activists insinuated themselves has become the main weapon used against trans people
4) In SE Asia, which has a long history of men transitioning to women, trans people view themselves as 'a woman, but a different type of woman'. Is this viable for the West? Probably not, given that trans people in that part of the world are very marginalized and pushed toward the sex industry.
5) Contrary to the way things are trending, it should be difficult to change your name/sex on ID card but easy to get hormones. If people want to live as feminine males or women with big clits, that's fine, but to gain the right to use the bathroom of a different sex to your birth sex, you should have to prove your legitimacy to some board of doctors. No rapists or violent criminals can ever be allowed to change sex; sorry, we just can't let that happen.
Basically I agree with you and I hope your tenets could be the basis of the normalization of normal trans people, but it seems a long way away.
>>4128
What job do you have where you meet lots of trans people in real life? Very rarely do I even see one.
Substantial populations of FtMs are schizotypal or schizophrenic or borderline personality. Your reaction is probably based around intrinsic disgust at male-bodied people presenting themselves as women, given that you've no basis to think that there is, in general, an indulgent sexual element lurking within people you barely know. Doubtless, if they looked like Hunter Schafer you would not react in the same way.
>f you were going to /k/ meetups (a wtf in itself), you likely fit this mold
This strikes me as more awkward, autistic behavior than it is indulgent sexual grimy masturbatory etc.
Preposterous comment given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothing and you responded with Hunter Schaefer who 1) looks obviously male and 2) is a rampant fetishist.
I worked for a large bookstore chain in middle management and was active in my city's arts scene as well as the gay scene. I've since left all 3, the latter two because of mentally ill trans people taking over and boring the hell out of me.
Think I'm going to exit this thread as well. You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life.
Anonymous :
53 days ago :
No.4231
>>4266
>>4231
da but i don't think a tranny being homophobic helps your point that you're not a weirdo no one wants to be around and hunter schafer kept some weird journal about wanting to be raped and eaten or something so ya, def a fetishist
>>4228
>>4131
Preposterous comment given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothing and you responded with Hunter Schaefer who 1) looks obviously male and 2) is a rampant fetishist.
I worked for a large bookstore chain in middle management and was active in my city's arts scene as well as the gay scene. I've since left all 3, the latter two because of mentally ill trans people taking over and boring the hell out of me.
Think I'm going to exit this thread as well. You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life.
>given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothin
Your point about Bowie was difficult to understand, it sounds like your view is that it's OK for men to wear women's clothes but not transsexuals, doesn't make a lot of sense.
>1) looks obviously male
No, you do not genuinely believe this. You are pretending to believe it for rhetorical purposes. If H.S. walked down the street, literally no-one would see a 'masturbatory, grimy man' etc.
>2) is a rampant fetishist
No evidence: so I dismiss out of hand.
>You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life
You seem to regard all trannies as creeps, mentally ill, fetishistic etc. They are doing so much damage you even had to leave the 'gay scene' (famously NOT full of bizarre sex and definitely NOT the wellspring of the AIDS pandemic [death toll: 40 million])
Anonymous :
53 days ago :
No.4266
>>4268
>>4266
Not homophobic to point out a fact. For a gay man to talk about transgenders getting their rocks off in bathrooms represents obvious projection. And Schafer's journal was just regular Tumblr attention-seeking, ironically the sort of thing radical feminists do a lot of. Doubtless if she were a natal women they would all coo over her and say-'you poor thing'...
>>4231
>>4228
>given I cited two "male bodied" individuals who look fine in feminine clothin
Your point about Bowie was difficult to understand, it sounds like your view is that it's OK for men to wear women's clothes but not transsexuals, doesn't make a lot of sense.
>1) looks obviously male
No, you do not genuinely believe this. You are pretending to believe it for rhetorical purposes. If H.S. walked down the street, literally no-one would see a 'masturbatory, grimy man' etc.
>2) is a rampant fetishist
No evidence: so I dismiss out of hand.
>You give me the creeps. I imagine you do the same to people in real life
You seem to regard all trannies as creeps, mentally ill, fetishistic etc. They are doing so much damage you even had to leave the 'gay scene' (famously NOT full of bizarre sex and definitely NOT the wellspring of the AIDS pandemic [death toll: 40 million])
da but i don't think a tranny being homophobic helps your point that you're not a weirdo no one wants to be around and hunter schafer kept some weird journal about wanting to be raped and eaten or something so ya, def a fetishist
Anonymous :
52 days ago :
No.4268
>>4321
>>4268
sorry, i'm siding with the gay man. you're coming across like school shooter weird.
>>4266
>>4231
da but i don't think a tranny being homophobic helps your point that you're not a weirdo no one wants to be around and hunter schafer kept some weird journal about wanting to be raped and eaten or something so ya, def a fetishist
Not homophobic to point out a fact. For a gay man to talk about transgenders getting their rocks off in bathrooms represents obvious projection. And Schafer's journal was just regular Tumblr attention-seeking, ironically the sort of thing radical feminists do a lot of. Doubtless if she were a natal women they would all coo over her and say-'you poor thing'...
Well, you would have to filter out all the timestapms and so on. Hey, this is a tranny thread, can any one of you sed that?
>>4268
>>4266
Not homophobic to point out a fact. For a gay man to talk about transgenders getting their rocks off in bathrooms represents obvious projection. And Schafer's journal was just regular Tumblr attention-seeking, ironically the sort of thing radical feminists do a lot of. Doubtless if she were a natal women they would all coo over her and say-'you poor thing'...
sorry, i'm siding with the gay man. you're coming across like school shooter weird.
Anonymous :
38 days ago :
No.4930
>>4945
>>4937
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
Anonymous :
38 days ago :
No.4937
>>4938
>>4937
and you're implying conversion therapy is an effective and legitimate psychiatric treatment? even the most annoying trannies on earth don't have any effect on your life one way or another, i kinda think you just goon to suffering 24/7
>>4945>>4937
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
>>4928
The view from Texas...
Getting people to accept and make peace with their biological sex sounds like a more tenable solution than requiring the rest of the world to lie to them 24/7 and give them everything and anything they want like we've been doing.
Anonymous :
38 days ago :
No.4938
>>4940
>>4938
Someone getting therapy to accept their natural body is not "conversion" therapy, lolololol. How insane. No wonder the gays hate you.
No one is innately transgender.
>>4937
>>4928
Getting people to accept and make peace with their biological sex sounds like a more tenable solution than requiring the rest of the world to lie to them 24/7 and give them everything and anything they want like we've been doing.
and you're implying conversion therapy is an effective and legitimate psychiatric treatment? even the most annoying trannies on earth don't have any effect on your life one way or another, i kinda think you just goon to suffering 24/7
>>4938
>>4937
and you're implying conversion therapy is an effective and legitimate psychiatric treatment? even the most annoying trannies on earth don't have any effect on your life one way or another, i kinda think you just goon to suffering 24/7
Someone getting therapy to accept their natural body is not "conversion" therapy, lolololol. How insane. No wonder the gays hate you.
No one is innately transgender.
Indeed. Any one who claims that they are trans gender should be thrown into an asylum, and not leave until they renounce their degeneracy.
Anonymous :
38 days ago :
No.4944
>>4945
>>4937
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
I think it's interesting to ask why conversation therapy became disreputable. Obviously few will defend it now but it was a very attractive proposition for a lot of gays for a long time. If there were really a therapeutic way to switch sexualities then I'm certain it would be vastly more popular than the alternative... maybe even required by law. But the fact is that it's simply ineffective and more importantly it's disreputable because it frequently resorted to harmful practices. The electroshock etc has no defense. I guess my point here is that if conversion therapy were strictly a placebo -- if, for example, it consisted of having 3 bland meals a day, getting 8 hours of sleep a night, and spending 8 hours a day flipping through golf magazines in a dentist's waiting room, followed by housework chores -- then I don't think it would be such an outrageous offense against the human personality. It would just be as pointless as crystal healing.
Anonymous :
38 days ago :
No.4945
>>4946
>>4945
I should have added that I do think sexual orientation *is* fixed for males *most* of the time, but since a lot of homosexuals are able to have relationships with women and achieve sexual response in the course of sex with these women, one has to wonder if a lot of 'homosexual' men out there are in fact 'bisexual' and could then be 'converted'. None of this means conversion *should* happen. You can't maintain that attitude unless there is some religious background for it
>>4986>>4945 I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not the person you think you're talking to
>>4937
>>4928
Getting people to accept and make peace with their biological sex sounds like a more tenable solution than requiring the rest of the world to lie to them 24/7 and give them everything and anything they want like we've been doing.
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944I think it's interesting to ask why conversation therapy became disreputable. Obviously few will defend it now but it was a very attractive proposition for a lot of gays for a long time. If there were really a therapeutic way to switch sexualities then I'm certain it would be vastly more popular than the alternative... maybe even required by law. But the fact is that it's simply ineffective and more importantly it's disreputable because it frequently resorted to harmful practices. The electroshock etc has no defense. I guess my point here is that if conversion therapy were strictly a placebo -- if, for example, it consisted of having 3 bland meals a day, getting 8 hours of sleep a night, and spending 8 hours a day flipping through golf magazines in a dentist's waiting room, followed by housework chores -- then I don't think it would be such an outrageous offense against the human personality. It would just be as pointless as crystal healing.
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
>>4945
>>4937
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
I should have added that I do think sexual orientation *is* fixed for males *most* of the time, but since a lot of homosexuals are able to have relationships with women and achieve sexual response in the course of sex with these women, one has to wonder if a lot of 'homosexual' men out there are in fact 'bisexual' and could then be 'converted'. None of this means conversion *should* happen. You can't maintain that attitude unless there is some religious background for it
Anonymous :
37 days ago :
No.4985
>>5033
>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim. A still photo? Sure. But get him walking, talking, or standing next to an actual woman and you can clock him instantly. Hell, have him turn his head to the side and you can tell. That you think people are pretending when we say we can tell he's male says a lot about you.
Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month
24/7/365.
Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
Anonymous :
37 days ago :
No.4986
>>5033
>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
>>4945
>>4937
What level of roleplay do you have to be on to call >>4930 a man? Let's be reasonable here.
>>4944
It's become disreputable is because homosexuals view their sexual orientation as not simply another fact about them, but at the heart of their true self, hence sexual orientation is viewed as biological, inborn and fixed. The idea of conversion strikes at the heart of that view. I can understand how someone who has had a more difficult life because of his sexual orientation would want to think this, because otherwise, he could ask: wouldn't it have been easier if I'd become quote-unquote normal?
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not the person you think you're talking to
Anonymous :
36 days ago :
No.5015
>>5016
>>5015
Of course it would be ethical if someone wanted it, and recommending it to patients instead of cosmetic medical intervention would be the right path to take.
>>5033>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
Were it effective, would de-trans "conversion therapy" be ethical?
Anonymous :
36 days ago :
No.5033
>>5044
>>5033
Hanging over this question of whether a given trans woman can be 'clocked' is the fact that the people you're asking the question to presumably know that they live in a society where it is common (relative to other points in time and other societies) for natal males to get cosmetic surgery and dress like women. Even trans women that 'pass' pretty well are less likely to blend in at a time when discussions about transition have permeated the public sphere. Because of this latent awareness that people who introduce themselves as women may be natal males, any attempt to objectively assess how male or female a person looks is difused with suspicion.
>>5055>>5033
I'm broadly sympathetic to trans people but Hunter looks like a more feminine Layne Staley in that photo lmao
>>5079>>5033
Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
"feminine pitch" - he sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman. I give up - I've heard that men are worse than women at discerning sex and you're really working to prove it. If you want to stick your dick in Hunter, it's ok. It doesn't make him a woman though.
And stop comparing sexual orientation conversion therapy to transgender conversion therapy. Gay people don't need surgery, a lifetime medical pathway, and the participation of the entire world to affirm their self perception as homosexual. They can just date and fuck people of the same sex.
Maybe there's an argument that conversion therapy should be available to gays, but it's a completely different subject than trying to get someone comfortable with their own biological sex and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
>>5044
Yeah, it's interesting how you sort of just start learn the tells and become more attuned even if you're not trying to. Just the knowledge is enough. I remember being shocked SHOCKED that Zeke on Survivor turned out to be FtM. Now I'd be suspicious instantly, if not 100% certain.
>>4985
It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim. A still photo? Sure. But get him walking, talking, or standing next to an actual woman and you can clock him instantly. Hell, have him turn his head to the side and you can tell. That you think people are pretending when we say we can tell he's male says a lot about you.
Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month
24/7/365.
Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986>>4945 I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not the person you think you're talking to
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015Were it effective, would de-trans "conversion therapy" be ethical?
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
Anonymous :
36 days ago :
No.5042
>>5049
>>5042
probably because mind > body
>>5080>>5042
What point do you think you're making here? (Please explain in detail.)
Isn't it ironic that the treatment that involves chemicals, surgery, and rewriting your social identity is NOT the one called "conversion therapy"?
True.
Anonymous :
35 days ago :
No.5044
>>5050
>>5044
I agree with this.
30 years ago, a clocky trans woman might have just been seen as an unfortunate looking woman--unlikely now though.
It may be that as the political controversy fades (as surely it must eventually) it will go back to a situation closer to that in the past.
Pictured is Wendy Carlos, early-ish trans woman. (Naturally, into synthesizers.)
>>5079>>5033
Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
"feminine pitch" - he sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman. I give up - I've heard that men are worse than women at discerning sex and you're really working to prove it. If you want to stick your dick in Hunter, it's ok. It doesn't make him a woman though.
And stop comparing sexual orientation conversion therapy to transgender conversion therapy. Gay people don't need surgery, a lifetime medical pathway, and the participation of the entire world to affirm their self perception as homosexual. They can just date and fuck people of the same sex.
Maybe there's an argument that conversion therapy should be available to gays, but it's a completely different subject than trying to get someone comfortable with their own biological sex and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
>>5044
Yeah, it's interesting how you sort of just start learn the tells and become more attuned even if you're not trying to. Just the knowledge is enough. I remember being shocked SHOCKED that Zeke on Survivor turned out to be FtM. Now I'd be suspicious instantly, if not 100% certain.
>>5033
>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
Hanging over this question of whether a given trans woman can be 'clocked' is the fact that the people you're asking the question to presumably know that they live in a society where it is common (relative to other points in time and other societies) for natal males to get cosmetic surgery and dress like women. Even trans women that 'pass' pretty well are less likely to blend in at a time when discussions about transition have permeated the public sphere. Because of this latent awareness that people who introduce themselves as women may be natal males, any attempt to objectively assess how male or female a person looks is difused with suspicion.
>>5044
>>5033
Hanging over this question of whether a given trans woman can be 'clocked' is the fact that the people you're asking the question to presumably know that they live in a society where it is common (relative to other points in time and other societies) for natal males to get cosmetic surgery and dress like women. Even trans women that 'pass' pretty well are less likely to blend in at a time when discussions about transition have permeated the public sphere. Because of this latent awareness that people who introduce themselves as women may be natal males, any attempt to objectively assess how male or female a person looks is difused with suspicion.
I agree with this.
30 years ago, a clocky trans woman might have just been seen as an unfortunate looking woman--unlikely now though.
It may be that as the political controversy fades (as surely it must eventually) it will go back to a situation closer to that in the past.
Pictured is Wendy Carlos, early-ish trans woman. (Naturally, into synthesizers.)
>>5033
>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
I'm broadly sympathetic to trans people but Hunter looks like a more feminine Layne Staley in that photo lmao
Anonymous :
35 days ago :
No.5079
>>5081
>>5079
I think the desire to use established language like 'conversion therapy' is a product of a kind of activist momentum. i.e., rather than take a contemporary hot button issue on its own terms, it is easier (both cognitively and politically) to just use the "this is just [no longer contentious issue] all over again" format.
Others might find this a silly comparison, but already by the time I was in high school we were being taught that racism should no longer be defined merely as 'racially prejudiced beliefs' but rather in this nebulous 'things that negatively affect minorities' way. I always thought that desperation to cling to the term racism in domains where by its literal definition it didn't apply was motivated by the same thought process: we can all agree that racism is bad, so by broadening the spectrum of things we can label racist, it will be easier to achieve 'moral clarity' on issue x or y.
>>5092>>5079
>Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Of course I grasp that she is of the male sex, but she underwent hormonal therapy, and so on. I think trans activists and trans skeptics often talk past one another on this issue. It's queer theorists who think biological sex isn't real, is a social construction or is a spectrum. Normal, non-intellectual transsexuals do understand that a body is born male or female, but nonetheless want to have the body or the opposite sex and live as/be perceived as that sex. I do think there is an element of LARP when conservatives (I am not saying that you are one) call a trans woman, who looks like a woman, a man.
Also, I don't think 'conversion therapies' for transsexuals and homosexuals are the same. I still think that in open societies, it should be legal to seek out conversion therapy, but it should be explained beforehand that there's no evidence that it works, and it should never be forced on someone. All this is hypothetical because conversion therapy seems not to work. For those who have long-lasting, unremitting gender dysphoria, psychotherapy doesn't cure the dysphoria, but it may make them more able to cope with it. People who've had GD for many years unfortunately seem not to grow out of it. Transition should be allowed as a last resort. This was the broad position of psychiatrists in the 1990s.
>and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
You have to look at the outcomes of individuals with GD who transition vs those who don't transition rather than transsexuals vs normal, non-gender dysphoric people. People with GD are not 'normal' if they don't transition. They live abnormal lives whether they do or don't.
>>5081
The reason that the idea of 'conversion therapy' was expanded was to prematurely close off debate. I do think that therapy which is based around the idea that transition is *never* a desirable outcome as unsuitable, however, as therapy which sees transition as an inevitable outcome. From what I've read, it seems that in some states as soon as someone saw a psychiatrist for GD, he would be put on the trans pathway. Transition should be an option where all other forms of therapy have failed.
>>5082
This is all true. It's been a terrible mistake to turn a medical disorder into a political issue.
>>5033
>>4985
>It's not "roleplay" to call Hunter Schafer a man. It's accurate. It doesn't matter how well he mimics a woman, which he doesn't do as well as his trans simps claim
I still think H.S. looks more female than male. Yes, she has some male features (doubtless that's the reason she has a lot of trans simps, because it means to them: you could look beautiful even if you don't look like a completely normal woman). Pictured is Schafer with the singer Rosalía (a still paparazzi photo, so not posed): would an ordinary member of the public tell that H.S. is trans? Also, she has a feminine voice pitch.
>Almost every gay person sees their orientation as just another aspect of themselves, albeit one with a lot of influence over their lives and worldviews. You're talking about (mostly heterosexual) queers who want pride month 24/7/365.
Sure, it's an aspect of themselves, but it's also a deep part of their identity, deeper (in most cases) than their career or music taste or intellectual interests. Hence the idea of conversion therapy strikes at the heart of their self-image. None of this is a criticism of gays, BTW, and it's not very unusual that they do this. But it does explain the revulsion at the idea of conversion therapy. It means that it is just not another fact about them. It's somewhat tied into the idea of the soul, which people still believe in despite us living in a secular age.
It also explains the stigmatization in lesbian circles of lesbians who've had relationships with men in the past: what matters is not only who the person is into now, but who they were into in the past, because being a lesbian is not just about having a sexual/romantic attraction but about how you see yourself. Like, why do you think this happens in lesbian communities if not for the reasons I've stated? This stigmatization also exists among gays but it's much less, and a lot of them are into 'turning' a straight man gay
>Honestly this whole conversation makes you seem hopelessly out of touch with women, trans, gays, reality. Maybe log off.
I can't work out what your view even is
>>4986
I responded to the bit about conversion therapy and what made it disreputable. I was trying to explain that homosexuals (and transsexuals) view their sexualities/identities as 'part of them' and the idea that one could be converted out of it implies that that's not the case. Like, the fact that you have a particular name is arbitrary--you could have been named a different name--but since it's yours, you like it now, and would feel unhappy to lose it.
>>5015
Yes, with the proviso that it *is* effective.
Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
"feminine pitch" - he sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman. I give up - I've heard that men are worse than women at discerning sex and you're really working to prove it. If you want to stick your dick in Hunter, it's ok. It doesn't make him a woman though.
And stop comparing sexual orientation conversion therapy to transgender conversion therapy. Gay people don't need surgery, a lifetime medical pathway, and the participation of the entire world to affirm their self perception as homosexual. They can just date and fuck people of the same sex.
Maybe there's an argument that conversion therapy should be available to gays, but it's a completely different subject than trying to get someone comfortable with their own biological sex and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
>>5044>>5033
Hanging over this question of whether a given trans woman can be 'clocked' is the fact that the people you're asking the question to presumably know that they live in a society where it is common (relative to other points in time and other societies) for natal males to get cosmetic surgery and dress like women. Even trans women that 'pass' pretty well are less likely to blend in at a time when discussions about transition have permeated the public sphere. Because of this latent awareness that people who introduce themselves as women may be natal males, any attempt to objectively assess how male or female a person looks is difused with suspicion.
Yeah, it's interesting how you sort of just start learn the tells and become more attuned even if you're not trying to. Just the knowledge is enough. I remember being shocked SHOCKED that Zeke on Survivor turned out to be FtM. Now I'd be suspicious instantly, if not 100% certain.
Anonymous :
35 days ago :
No.5081
>>5092
>>5079
>Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Of course I grasp that she is of the male sex, but she underwent hormonal therapy, and so on. I think trans activists and trans skeptics often talk past one another on this issue. It's queer theorists who think biological sex isn't real, is a social construction or is a spectrum. Normal, non-intellectual transsexuals do understand that a body is born male or female, but nonetheless want to have the body or the opposite sex and live as/be perceived as that sex. I do think there is an element of LARP when conservatives (I am not saying that you are one) call a trans woman, who looks like a woman, a man.
Also, I don't think 'conversion therapies' for transsexuals and homosexuals are the same. I still think that in open societies, it should be legal to seek out conversion therapy, but it should be explained beforehand that there's no evidence that it works, and it should never be forced on someone. All this is hypothetical because conversion therapy seems not to work. For those who have long-lasting, unremitting gender dysphoria, psychotherapy doesn't cure the dysphoria, but it may make them more able to cope with it. People who've had GD for many years unfortunately seem not to grow out of it. Transition should be allowed as a last resort. This was the broad position of psychiatrists in the 1990s.
>and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
You have to look at the outcomes of individuals with GD who transition vs those who don't transition rather than transsexuals vs normal, non-gender dysphoric people. People with GD are not 'normal' if they don't transition. They live abnormal lives whether they do or don't.
>>5081
The reason that the idea of 'conversion therapy' was expanded was to prematurely close off debate. I do think that therapy which is based around the idea that transition is *never* a desirable outcome as unsuitable, however, as therapy which sees transition as an inevitable outcome. From what I've read, it seems that in some states as soon as someone saw a psychiatrist for GD, he would be put on the trans pathway. Transition should be an option where all other forms of therapy have failed.
>>5082
This is all true. It's been a terrible mistake to turn a medical disorder into a political issue.
>>5079
>>5033
Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
"feminine pitch" - he sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman. I give up - I've heard that men are worse than women at discerning sex and you're really working to prove it. If you want to stick your dick in Hunter, it's ok. It doesn't make him a woman though.
And stop comparing sexual orientation conversion therapy to transgender conversion therapy. Gay people don't need surgery, a lifetime medical pathway, and the participation of the entire world to affirm their self perception as homosexual. They can just date and fuck people of the same sex.
Maybe there's an argument that conversion therapy should be available to gays, but it's a completely different subject than trying to get someone comfortable with their own biological sex and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
>>5044
Yeah, it's interesting how you sort of just start learn the tells and become more attuned even if you're not trying to. Just the knowledge is enough. I remember being shocked SHOCKED that Zeke on Survivor turned out to be FtM. Now I'd be suspicious instantly, if not 100% certain.
I think the desire to use established language like 'conversion therapy' is a product of a kind of activist momentum. i.e., rather than take a contemporary hot button issue on its own terms, it is easier (both cognitively and politically) to just use the "this is just [no longer contentious issue] all over again" format.
Others might find this a silly comparison, but already by the time I was in high school we were being taught that racism should no longer be defined merely as 'racially prejudiced beliefs' but rather in this nebulous 'things that negatively affect minorities' way. I always thought that desperation to cling to the term racism in domains where by its literal definition it didn't apply was motivated by the same thought process: we can all agree that racism is bad, so by broadening the spectrum of things we can label racist, it will be easier to achieve 'moral clarity' on issue x or y.
Anonymous :
35 days ago :
No.5082
>>5091
>>5082
It's not that the world has gone nuts, it's that there's a central equivocation that is being spammed by a tiny group of fetishists who have the backing of a large NGO coalition that was mobilized for gay rights and ran out of stuff to do -- until they started hiring Tumblr kids for ideas.
>>5092>>5079
>Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Of course I grasp that she is of the male sex, but she underwent hormonal therapy, and so on. I think trans activists and trans skeptics often talk past one another on this issue. It's queer theorists who think biological sex isn't real, is a social construction or is a spectrum. Normal, non-intellectual transsexuals do understand that a body is born male or female, but nonetheless want to have the body or the opposite sex and live as/be perceived as that sex. I do think there is an element of LARP when conservatives (I am not saying that you are one) call a trans woman, who looks like a woman, a man.
Also, I don't think 'conversion therapies' for transsexuals and homosexuals are the same. I still think that in open societies, it should be legal to seek out conversion therapy, but it should be explained beforehand that there's no evidence that it works, and it should never be forced on someone. All this is hypothetical because conversion therapy seems not to work. For those who have long-lasting, unremitting gender dysphoria, psychotherapy doesn't cure the dysphoria, but it may make them more able to cope with it. People who've had GD for many years unfortunately seem not to grow out of it. Transition should be allowed as a last resort. This was the broad position of psychiatrists in the 1990s.
>and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
You have to look at the outcomes of individuals with GD who transition vs those who don't transition rather than transsexuals vs normal, non-gender dysphoric people. People with GD are not 'normal' if they don't transition. They live abnormal lives whether they do or don't.
>>5081
The reason that the idea of 'conversion therapy' was expanded was to prematurely close off debate. I do think that therapy which is based around the idea that transition is *never* a desirable outcome as unsuitable, however, as therapy which sees transition as an inevitable outcome. From what I've read, it seems that in some states as soon as someone saw a psychiatrist for GD, he would be put on the trans pathway. Transition should be an option where all other forms of therapy have failed.
>>5082
This is all true. It's been a terrible mistake to turn a medical disorder into a political issue.
>>5801
I don't think it's silly - there's a term for it called concept creep and you can see stuff like "abuse" and "trauma" for examples of how watered down those words have become. "Racism" definitely qualifies too.
And it's kind of crazy how much the trans lobby relies on taking language from the gay and the civil rights movements and using it for their own purposes, nevermind there was never a push from black or gay people to pretend that they belonged to categories that they did not. They weren't arguing to be accepted as white or straight, just given the same rights as everyone else.
I've had people argue with me that not letting a man into a woman's facility is the same thing as not letting a black woman into a woman's facility. The world has gone kind of nuts over this.
>>5082
>>5801
I don't think it's silly - there's a term for it called concept creep and you can see stuff like "abuse" and "trauma" for examples of how watered down those words have become. "Racism" definitely qualifies too.
And it's kind of crazy how much the trans lobby relies on taking language from the gay and the civil rights movements and using it for their own purposes, nevermind there was never a push from black or gay people to pretend that they belonged to categories that they did not. They weren't arguing to be accepted as white or straight, just given the same rights as everyone else.
I've had people argue with me that not letting a man into a woman's facility is the same thing as not letting a black woman into a woman's facility. The world has gone kind of nuts over this.
It's not that the world has gone nuts, it's that there's a central equivocation that is being spammed by a tiny group of fetishists who have the backing of a large NGO coalition that was mobilized for gay rights and ran out of stuff to do -- until they started hiring Tumblr kids for ideas.
Anonymous :
34 days ago :
No.5092
>>5097
>>5092
Fair enough. If there's a material reality to biological sex, then there's a material reality to medical transition too. Though I'm beyond thinking it matters anymore politically* and that men like Hunter should just be classified as men by the legislature. That you think Hunter looks just like a woman and I think Hunter looks like Legolas just goes to show that you can't really legislate "passing" because it's not a binary. In reality, well behaved, passing transwomen will continue to use women's facilities when they're able (and hopefully get barred completely from more secure areas like prison), but the law ought to be on the women's side when they're challenged. That's the position I have arrived at and have held steady for a while, having held a much more "liberal", "progressive" stance ~10 years ago.
I'm also on the conservative's side when it comes to the language. People are so dumb that I think underlining that someone is a man even if he appears to be a woman has become important. One of the arguments I used to hear the most when I participated in these gender debates was "transwomen are women, it's even in their name!" Completely insipid, but apparently powerful. I'm not going to tsk tsk someone calling a friend or family by preferred pronouns, but politicians and journalists should be using language that reflect reality when on the job.
*It used to be a joke that no man would medically transition just to use the women's bathrooms, and I used to think if someone was willing to take hormones and cut their dick off, it must mean they're really innocuous and just need to "live as women", whatever that means. But now, having observed the mess we're in, I think the more barriers society puts up, the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge. The men who fully transition are often the biggest perverts around and the ones who need to be told "no" the most firmly.
>>5079
>>5033
Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
"feminine pitch" - he sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman. I give up - I've heard that men are worse than women at discerning sex and you're really working to prove it. If you want to stick your dick in Hunter, it's ok. It doesn't make him a woman though.
And stop comparing sexual orientation conversion therapy to transgender conversion therapy. Gay people don't need surgery, a lifetime medical pathway, and the participation of the entire world to affirm their self perception as homosexual. They can just date and fuck people of the same sex.
Maybe there's an argument that conversion therapy should be available to gays, but it's a completely different subject than trying to get someone comfortable with their own biological sex and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
>>5044
Yeah, it's interesting how you sort of just start learn the tells and become more attuned even if you're not trying to. Just the knowledge is enough. I remember being shocked SHOCKED that Zeke on Survivor turned out to be FtM. Now I'd be suspicious instantly, if not 100% certain.
>Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Of course I grasp that she is of the male sex, but she underwent hormonal therapy, and so on. I think trans activists and trans skeptics often talk past one another on this issue. It's queer theorists who think biological sex isn't real, is a social construction or is a spectrum. Normal, non-intellectual transsexuals do understand that a body is born male or female, but nonetheless want to have the body or the opposite sex and live as/be perceived as that sex. I do think there is an element of LARP when conservatives (I am not saying that you are one) call a trans woman, who looks like a woman, a man.
Also, I don't think 'conversion therapies' for transsexuals and homosexuals are the same. I still think that in open societies, it should be legal to seek out conversion therapy, but it should be explained beforehand that there's no evidence that it works, and it should never be forced on someone. All this is hypothetical because conversion therapy seems not to work. For those who have long-lasting, unremitting gender dysphoria, psychotherapy doesn't cure the dysphoria, but it may make them more able to cope with it. People who've had GD for many years unfortunately seem not to grow out of it. Transition should be allowed as a last resort. This was the broad position of psychiatrists in the 1990s.
>and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
You have to look at the outcomes of individuals with GD who transition vs those who don't transition rather than transsexuals vs normal, non-gender dysphoric people. People with GD are not 'normal' if they don't transition. They live abnormal lives whether they do or don't.
>>5081>>5079
I think the desire to use established language like 'conversion therapy' is a product of a kind of activist momentum. i.e., rather than take a contemporary hot button issue on its own terms, it is easier (both cognitively and politically) to just use the "this is just [no longer contentious issue] all over again" format.
Others might find this a silly comparison, but already by the time I was in high school we were being taught that racism should no longer be defined merely as 'racially prejudiced beliefs' but rather in this nebulous 'things that negatively affect minorities' way. I always thought that desperation to cling to the term racism in domains where by its literal definition it didn't apply was motivated by the same thought process: we can all agree that racism is bad, so by broadening the spectrum of things we can label racist, it will be easier to achieve 'moral clarity' on issue x or y.
The reason that the idea of 'conversion therapy' was expanded was to prematurely close off debate. I do think that therapy which is based around the idea that transition is *never* a desirable outcome as unsuitable, however, as therapy which sees transition as an inevitable outcome. From what I've read, it seems that in some states as soon as someone saw a psychiatrist for GD, he would be put on the trans pathway. Transition should be an option where all other forms of therapy have failed.
>>5082>>5801
I don't think it's silly - there's a term for it called concept creep and you can see stuff like "abuse" and "trauma" for examples of how watered down those words have become. "Racism" definitely qualifies too.
And it's kind of crazy how much the trans lobby relies on taking language from the gay and the civil rights movements and using it for their own purposes, nevermind there was never a push from black or gay people to pretend that they belonged to categories that they did not. They weren't arguing to be accepted as white or straight, just given the same rights as everyone else.
I've had people argue with me that not letting a man into a woman's facility is the same thing as not letting a black woman into a woman's facility. The world has gone kind of nuts over this.
This is all true. It's been a terrible mistake to turn a medical disorder into a political issue.
Anonymous :
34 days ago :
No.5097
>>5113
>>5097
>I think the more barriers society puts up
>the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge
You've said it. No barriers and the freaks wouldn't be interested. Accept transwomen are women. Allow everyone to use the toilet they feel comfortable with. Society can move on.
>>5139>>5097
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
>>5092
>>5079
>Lol, look at her 6 inch soles to match her boyfriend's height. Come on, man. Anyone can look at this picture and identify which one is the man. And it doesn't matter even if Hunter looks female. He isn't. He can pass perfectly as a woman and he'll still be a man. I don't understand why you can't grasp this simple concept. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.
Of course I grasp that she is of the male sex, but she underwent hormonal therapy, and so on. I think trans activists and trans skeptics often talk past one another on this issue. It's queer theorists who think biological sex isn't real, is a social construction or is a spectrum. Normal, non-intellectual transsexuals do understand that a body is born male or female, but nonetheless want to have the body or the opposite sex and live as/be perceived as that sex. I do think there is an element of LARP when conservatives (I am not saying that you are one) call a trans woman, who looks like a woman, a man.
Also, I don't think 'conversion therapies' for transsexuals and homosexuals are the same. I still think that in open societies, it should be legal to seek out conversion therapy, but it should be explained beforehand that there's no evidence that it works, and it should never be forced on someone. All this is hypothetical because conversion therapy seems not to work. For those who have long-lasting, unremitting gender dysphoria, psychotherapy doesn't cure the dysphoria, but it may make them more able to cope with it. People who've had GD for many years unfortunately seem not to grow out of it. Transition should be allowed as a last resort. This was the broad position of psychiatrists in the 1990s.
>and its resulting physiology, especially since "gender affirming care" causes harm and leaves bodies worse off than they were before. No surgery/no "medication"/healthy body is always going to be the preferable outcome to surgery/"medication"/unhealthy body.
You have to look at the outcomes of individuals with GD who transition vs those who don't transition rather than transsexuals vs normal, non-gender dysphoric people. People with GD are not 'normal' if they don't transition. They live abnormal lives whether they do or don't.
>>5081
The reason that the idea of 'conversion therapy' was expanded was to prematurely close off debate. I do think that therapy which is based around the idea that transition is *never* a desirable outcome as unsuitable, however, as therapy which sees transition as an inevitable outcome. From what I've read, it seems that in some states as soon as someone saw a psychiatrist for GD, he would be put on the trans pathway. Transition should be an option where all other forms of therapy have failed.
>>5082
This is all true. It's been a terrible mistake to turn a medical disorder into a political issue.
Fair enough. If there's a material reality to biological sex, then there's a material reality to medical transition too. Though I'm beyond thinking it matters anymore politically* and that men like Hunter should just be classified as men by the legislature. That you think Hunter looks just like a woman and I think Hunter looks like Legolas just goes to show that you can't really legislate "passing" because it's not a binary. In reality, well behaved, passing transwomen will continue to use women's facilities when they're able (and hopefully get barred completely from more secure areas like prison), but the law ought to be on the women's side when they're challenged. That's the position I have arrived at and have held steady for a while, having held a much more "liberal", "progressive" stance ~10 years ago.
I'm also on the conservative's side when it comes to the language. People are so dumb that I think underlining that someone is a man even if he appears to be a woman has become important. One of the arguments I used to hear the most when I participated in these gender debates was "transwomen are women, it's even in their name!" Completely insipid, but apparently powerful. I'm not going to tsk tsk someone calling a friend or family by preferred pronouns, but politicians and journalists should be using language that reflect reality when on the job.
*It used to be a joke that no man would medically transition just to use the women's bathrooms, and I used to think if someone was willing to take hormones and cut their dick off, it must mean they're really innocuous and just need to "live as women", whatever that means. But now, having observed the mess we're in, I think the more barriers society puts up, the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge. The men who fully transition are often the biggest perverts around and the ones who need to be told "no" the most firmly.
Anonymous :
34 days ago :
No.5113
>>5132
>>5113
No, we won't be doing that. Perhaps the trans community should have gatekept more. Oh well. Too late now.
>>5097
>>5092
Fair enough. If there's a material reality to biological sex, then there's a material reality to medical transition too. Though I'm beyond thinking it matters anymore politically* and that men like Hunter should just be classified as men by the legislature. That you think Hunter looks just like a woman and I think Hunter looks like Legolas just goes to show that you can't really legislate "passing" because it's not a binary. In reality, well behaved, passing transwomen will continue to use women's facilities when they're able (and hopefully get barred completely from more secure areas like prison), but the law ought to be on the women's side when they're challenged. That's the position I have arrived at and have held steady for a while, having held a much more "liberal", "progressive" stance ~10 years ago.
I'm also on the conservative's side when it comes to the language. People are so dumb that I think underlining that someone is a man even if he appears to be a woman has become important. One of the arguments I used to hear the most when I participated in these gender debates was "transwomen are women, it's even in their name!" Completely insipid, but apparently powerful. I'm not going to tsk tsk someone calling a friend or family by preferred pronouns, but politicians and journalists should be using language that reflect reality when on the job.
*It used to be a joke that no man would medically transition just to use the women's bathrooms, and I used to think if someone was willing to take hormones and cut their dick off, it must mean they're really innocuous and just need to "live as women", whatever that means. But now, having observed the mess we're in, I think the more barriers society puts up, the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge. The men who fully transition are often the biggest perverts around and the ones who need to be told "no" the most firmly.
>I think the more barriers society puts up
>the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge
You've said it. No barriers and the freaks wouldn't be interested. Accept transwomen are women. Allow everyone to use the toilet they feel comfortable with. Society can move on.
Hunter sits right on the middle of male and female. We should ditch the 'trans' conversation and go back to having a third androgynous gender for all these peripheral cases
>>5113
>>5097
>I think the more barriers society puts up
>the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge
You've said it. No barriers and the freaks wouldn't be interested. Accept transwomen are women. Allow everyone to use the toilet they feel comfortable with. Society can move on.
No, we won't be doing that. Perhaps the trans community should have gatekept more. Oh well. Too late now.
Anonymous :
34 days ago :
No.5133
>>5139
>>5097
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
Do you think gay men have a job to gatekeep "freaks"? I think the straight community needs to gatekeep its transphobic freaks more.
Anonymous :
34 days ago :
No.5139
>>5142
>>5139
You're one of the freaks.
>>5187>>5139
I'll use the correct pronouns if they come to me naturally; that is if the person is like Hunter who is actually trying to transition and is clearly acting toward a set of aesthetic formation. Those who only have their transition in theory only are much harder to juggle mentally and I do not bother using their asked pronouns in private.
>>5188>>5139
Interesting
>>5187
This is a reasonable view which most could go along with.
This is the Instagram post on which Hunter commented, which led 'non-binary' people to try and cancel her
Definitely there will be a split between more normal + medicalized transgender people who actually want to transition and people who just want to be radical and alternative--be a woman with a beard bro, fuck gender roles!--who are often commies as well
>>5097
>>5092
Fair enough. If there's a material reality to biological sex, then there's a material reality to medical transition too. Though I'm beyond thinking it matters anymore politically* and that men like Hunter should just be classified as men by the legislature. That you think Hunter looks just like a woman and I think Hunter looks like Legolas just goes to show that you can't really legislate "passing" because it's not a binary. In reality, well behaved, passing transwomen will continue to use women's facilities when they're able (and hopefully get barred completely from more secure areas like prison), but the law ought to be on the women's side when they're challenged. That's the position I have arrived at and have held steady for a while, having held a much more "liberal", "progressive" stance ~10 years ago.
I'm also on the conservative's side when it comes to the language. People are so dumb that I think underlining that someone is a man even if he appears to be a woman has become important. One of the arguments I used to hear the most when I participated in these gender debates was "transwomen are women, it's even in their name!" Completely insipid, but apparently powerful. I'm not going to tsk tsk someone calling a friend or family by preferred pronouns, but politicians and journalists should be using language that reflect reality when on the job.
*It used to be a joke that no man would medically transition just to use the women's bathrooms, and I used to think if someone was willing to take hormones and cut their dick off, it must mean they're really innocuous and just need to "live as women", whatever that means. But now, having observed the mess we're in, I think the more barriers society puts up, the bigger the freak that rises to the challenge. The men who fully transition are often the biggest perverts around and the ones who need to be told "no" the most firmly.
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133Do you think gay men have a job to gatekeep "freaks"? I think the straight community needs to gatekeep its transphobic freaks more.
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
>>5139
>>5097
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
You're one of the freaks.
Anonymous :
33 days ago :
No.5187
>>5188
>>5139
Interesting
>>5187
This is a reasonable view which most could go along with.
This is the Instagram post on which Hunter commented, which led 'non-binary' people to try and cancel her
Definitely there will be a split between more normal + medicalized transgender people who actually want to transition and people who just want to be radical and alternative--be a woman with a beard bro, fuck gender roles!--who are often commies as well
>>5139
>>5097
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
I'll use the correct pronouns if they come to me naturally; that is if the person is like Hunter who is actually trying to transition and is clearly acting toward a set of aesthetic formation. Those who only have their transition in theory only are much harder to juggle mentally and I do not bother using their asked pronouns in private.
Anonymous :
33 days ago :
No.5188
>>5222
>>5188
The kind of people that cancelled Hunter for that are heavily gatekept from most trans spaces. I don't know a single trans woman that likes them, and I don't get why people assume we *would* like them. Without fail, enbies that are "validation"-focused end up making arguments that can only be interpreted as "HRT shouldn't be mandated for trans people" and often lead to word slop like picrel. They're basically trojan transphobes. I don't know what they want and neither do they, it's like they just wanna keep saying dumber shit while getting uglier every time you look at them.
Ladybeards aren't trans, you're not trans if you're not taking or seeking to take HRT in hopes that you can alleviate dysphoria with it. Teenagers get to be cringe and cope with weird shit on their journey to adulthood, but if you're an adult and you're still getting up to that shit... Ugh. This is making me remember Sam Brinton. That was like 9/11 for me, all my normie cis acquaintances talked with me about it trying to defend him, but they seemed confused and unsure about everything. Libshit "allies" are the worst, it's like they go out of their way to undo all the gatekeeping we do.
>>5139
>>5097
i agree on the language front, but i don't think that's necessarily "agreeing with the conservative stance". ime they don't actually have beliefs there, that's just one of the arguments that eventually leads to the total eradication rhetoric you see now. it's infuriating sometimes how so many trans women freak out about randos misgendering them. institutionally yeah, if a professor repeatedly misgenders a student they know is trans that's just not conducive to a healthy learning environment and that shouldn't be allowed. in that case it's not a big deal to use words that cause the least friction, that seems inherently sensible to me. similarly i don't correct people if they gender me male in public because dynamic social environments allow such things inherently. i'm transitioning for myself, not the fat gen x'er in a packers jersey giving me the evil eye at 7/11. no matter what you do, a large amount of people are going to call a magazine a clip, call contrails "chemtrails", and call trans women men. whenever i see a trans person taking casual misgendering seriously i just see sheer weakness and naiveté. the community in my city gatekeeps the hell out of weakshits like that, but they spend all their time inside playing valorant or whatever and maybe hang out with two or three similarly gormless trannies so there's only so much you can do. i see them as a subspecies of the venerable american treatler, inshallah the trump tax will starve them of their fun toys and forces their vessel to house a living soul.
tbh casual misgendering is a valuable filter that's made finding good friends wayyy easier now that i'm trans. people wear that shit on their sleeve and it outs them as being uninterested in things outside their current station in life. that being said some of the biggest freaks i've ever met have been like, cis men and women that seem normal at first glance but then you realize they're trying *really really hard* to seem normal and they only use the "right" pronouns because they work in HR and enjoy it. those deceptive little shits ought to be misgendering me
>>5133
if trannies were doing the kind of shit gay men do you'd have killed us all already. gender identity is more central to one's sense of self than sexuality and i don't have anything in common with a urinal-licking voyeur jacking off his freshly of-age hookup in the middle of market street for all to see
Interesting
>>5187>>5139
I'll use the correct pronouns if they come to me naturally; that is if the person is like Hunter who is actually trying to transition and is clearly acting toward a set of aesthetic formation. Those who only have their transition in theory only are much harder to juggle mentally and I do not bother using their asked pronouns in private.
This is a reasonable view which most could go along with.
This is the Instagram post on which Hunter commented, which led 'non-binary' people to try and cancel her
Definitely there will be a split between more normal + medicalized transgender people who actually want to transition and people who just want to be radical and alternative--be a woman with a beard bro, fuck gender roles!--who are often commies as well
Anonymous :
32 days ago :
No.5222
>>5225
>>5222
Well I said that it was non-binary folx who tried to cancel Hunter. But in the eyes of the public, Brinton is part of the same phenomenon as ordinary transgender people. It is not really a matter of gatekeeping in trans spaces either, because it's about the media presentation, which is not under (despite what some say) transgender people's control
>Sam Brinton
Pretty sure he is just a narcissist
There is a politician in France too, forget his name, who claims to be a trans woman but is bald with stubble, but wears long, pendulous earrings. Also, Dylan Mulvaney is classic narcissistic gay actor type, elevated by the media to representative of trans people
They will never show ordinary trans people eg Hunter or others
>>5188
>>5139
Interesting
>>5187
This is a reasonable view which most could go along with.
This is the Instagram post on which Hunter commented, which led 'non-binary' people to try and cancel her
Definitely there will be a split between more normal + medicalized transgender people who actually want to transition and people who just want to be radical and alternative--be a woman with a beard bro, fuck gender roles!--who are often commies as well
The kind of people that cancelled Hunter for that are heavily gatekept from most trans spaces. I don't know a single trans woman that likes them, and I don't get why people assume we *would* like them. Without fail, enbies that are "validation"-focused end up making arguments that can only be interpreted as "HRT shouldn't be mandated for trans people" and often lead to word slop like picrel. They're basically trojan transphobes. I don't know what they want and neither do they, it's like they just wanna keep saying dumber shit while getting uglier every time you look at them.
Ladybeards aren't trans, you're not trans if you're not taking or seeking to take HRT in hopes that you can alleviate dysphoria with it. Teenagers get to be cringe and cope with weird shit on their journey to adulthood, but if you're an adult and you're still getting up to that shit... Ugh. This is making me remember Sam Brinton. That was like 9/11 for me, all my normie cis acquaintances talked with me about it trying to defend him, but they seemed confused and unsure about everything. Libshit "allies" are the worst, it's like they go out of their way to undo all the gatekeeping we do.
The truth is, is this transgender nonsense has gone too far. It is a symptom of civilization's decline, where people who have become so fat and decadent, are trying to destroy the immortal laws of the universe. A man can never be a woman. Just as the strong will always conquer the meek, and should not be prevented in this. These laws are equivalent, and breaking them results in the end of your civilization. For more information, see the fall of the Roman Empire. If we do not stop this NOW and with TOTAL AND BRUTAL FORCE, the consequences will be disastrous. We must not let "mercy" enter our hearts, even for a microsecond, when we combat this evil. Or we may as well say that antigravity exists, and we can leap to the moon, such will the lunacy rampant be.
Anonymous :
32 days ago :
No.5225
>>5226
>>5225
I remembered the name of the politician, it's Eva Son-Forget. Also accused of stealing clothes: Brintonmania is taking off worldwide!
>>5222
>>5188
The kind of people that cancelled Hunter for that are heavily gatekept from most trans spaces. I don't know a single trans woman that likes them, and I don't get why people assume we *would* like them. Without fail, enbies that are "validation"-focused end up making arguments that can only be interpreted as "HRT shouldn't be mandated for trans people" and often lead to word slop like picrel. They're basically trojan transphobes. I don't know what they want and neither do they, it's like they just wanna keep saying dumber shit while getting uglier every time you look at them.
Ladybeards aren't trans, you're not trans if you're not taking or seeking to take HRT in hopes that you can alleviate dysphoria with it. Teenagers get to be cringe and cope with weird shit on their journey to adulthood, but if you're an adult and you're still getting up to that shit... Ugh. This is making me remember Sam Brinton. That was like 9/11 for me, all my normie cis acquaintances talked with me about it trying to defend him, but they seemed confused and unsure about everything. Libshit "allies" are the worst, it's like they go out of their way to undo all the gatekeeping we do.
Well I said that it was non-binary folx who tried to cancel Hunter. But in the eyes of the public, Brinton is part of the same phenomenon as ordinary transgender people. It is not really a matter of gatekeeping in trans spaces either, because it's about the media presentation, which is not under (despite what some say) transgender people's control
>Sam Brinton
Pretty sure he is just a narcissist
There is a politician in France too, forget his name, who claims to be a trans woman but is bald with stubble, but wears long, pendulous earrings. Also, Dylan Mulvaney is classic narcissistic gay actor type, elevated by the media to representative of trans people
They will never show ordinary trans people eg Hunter or others
>>5225
>>5222
Well I said that it was non-binary folx who tried to cancel Hunter. But in the eyes of the public, Brinton is part of the same phenomenon as ordinary transgender people. It is not really a matter of gatekeeping in trans spaces either, because it's about the media presentation, which is not under (despite what some say) transgender people's control
>Sam Brinton
Pretty sure he is just a narcissist
There is a politician in France too, forget his name, who claims to be a trans woman but is bald with stubble, but wears long, pendulous earrings. Also, Dylan Mulvaney is classic narcissistic gay actor type, elevated by the media to representative of trans people
They will never show ordinary trans people eg Hunter or others
I remembered the name of the politician, it's Eva Son-Forget. Also accused of stealing clothes: Brintonmania is taking off worldwide!
>5224
Excellent, 10/10 satire.
I'm so tired of hearing about this shit.
Cool thread
One day, one triumphant day, we will end this nonsense. WE WILL END IT by our might, they cannot stop us, we go to the end.
I need to pin a failed male down and ravish him for days, soon he will remember nothing except me pumping inside him.
Anonymous :
4 days ago :
No.5951
>>5952
>>5951
(s)he's not wrong though. I also think it's weird it's considered "right wing" to be against transgender. Like it's historically left wing to be against big pharma, cosmetic surgery, and men invading women's spaces.
>>5740
trannies ruin every space they infest. stay in your containment zone
rightoids out
Anonymous :
4 days ago :
No.5952
>>5954
>>5952
Leftism has always been about liberations. Liberation from the oppression of tyrants, liberation from the oppression of capitalists, liberation of the oppression of dad and ultimately liberation from the oppression of biology. Transgender theory makes it pretty explicit that it sees itself as the logical consequences of leftist thought.
>>5958>>5952
Muh big pharma
>men invading women's spaces
Who were the people who shut down men's clubs, who demand even to go into men's barbershops? What were they called again?
Also, this is literally the containment thread, why the complaint??
>>5955
I guess I'm not a leftist and don't believe in any sort of rhetoric of being liberated (too over-the-top for me), but being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool and would have been unimaginable before modern medicine. It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Anonymous :
4 days ago :
No.5954
>>5955
>>5954
But they're in no way escaping their biology and it's kind of crazy to think that they are. Birth control might make sense as liberation from biology, but inducing gynecomastia and lopping off body parts is a "liberation from biology"? Come on. It's all just a larp.
Maybe one day we'll really be able to change sex, though I think it's more likely we'll live in a simulation and choose our avatars before we "liberate ourselves from the oppression of biology"
>>5952
>>5951
(s)he's not wrong though. I also think it's weird it's considered "right wing" to be against transgender. Like it's historically left wing to be against big pharma, cosmetic surgery, and men invading women's spaces.
Leftism has always been about liberations. Liberation from the oppression of tyrants, liberation from the oppression of capitalists, liberation of the oppression of dad and ultimately liberation from the oppression of biology. Transgender theory makes it pretty explicit that it sees itself as the logical consequences of leftist thought.
Anonymous :
4 days ago :
No.5955
>>5957
>>5955
It seems to me that it is pretty much irrelevant that the goal is impossible. You even gave examples where limited liberation is possible.
>Come on. It's all just a larp.
Dressing up as a women is larp. Getting an extremely serious surgery, with severe downsides for no medical reasons can not possibly be larp.
Something is larp because it is pretending, but pretending ends when there are real costs attached to continuing.
>we'll live in a simulation
There is no such thing as "life" in a simulation.
>>5958>>5952
Muh big pharma
>men invading women's spaces
Who were the people who shut down men's clubs, who demand even to go into men's barbershops? What were they called again?
Also, this is literally the containment thread, why the complaint??
>>5955
I guess I'm not a leftist and don't believe in any sort of rhetoric of being liberated (too over-the-top for me), but being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool and would have been unimaginable before modern medicine. It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
>>5954
>>5952
Leftism has always been about liberations. Liberation from the oppression of tyrants, liberation from the oppression of capitalists, liberation of the oppression of dad and ultimately liberation from the oppression of biology. Transgender theory makes it pretty explicit that it sees itself as the logical consequences of leftist thought.
But they're in no way escaping their biology and it's kind of crazy to think that they are. Birth control might make sense as liberation from biology, but inducing gynecomastia and lopping off body parts is a "liberation from biology"? Come on. It's all just a larp.
Maybe one day we'll really be able to change sex, though I think it's more likely we'll live in a simulation and choose our avatars before we "liberate ourselves from the oppression of biology"
>>5955
>>5954
But they're in no way escaping their biology and it's kind of crazy to think that they are. Birth control might make sense as liberation from biology, but inducing gynecomastia and lopping off body parts is a "liberation from biology"? Come on. It's all just a larp.
Maybe one day we'll really be able to change sex, though I think it's more likely we'll live in a simulation and choose our avatars before we "liberate ourselves from the oppression of biology"
It seems to me that it is pretty much irrelevant that the goal is impossible. You even gave examples where limited liberation is possible.
>Come on. It's all just a larp.
Dressing up as a women is larp. Getting an extremely serious surgery, with severe downsides for no medical reasons can not possibly be larp.
Something is larp because it is pretending, but pretending ends when there are real costs attached to continuing.
>we'll live in a simulation
There is no such thing as "life" in a simulation.
Anonymous :
3 days ago :
No.5958
>>5962
>>5958
Uh, you don't change your phenotype. Phenotype is the expression of your genes, not cosmetics brought about by drugs and surgery. This sort of ignorance makes me wish this shit was illegal, like you don't even know what you're doing to yourself, lmao.
And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
>>5964>>5958
>But being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool
When I was around 12 I believe that was the way it worked. But no, "changing your gender" is about introducing hormones and performing gruesome surgeries. Of the visible changes plastic surgery is doing most of it. The idea of "changing your gender" is ridiculous, every single gene has your gender written on it.
>It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Besides the obvious fact of the debilitating side effects and that the numerous surgeries are only ever successful at fooling a limited number of people, being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
>>5952
>>5951
(s)he's not wrong though. I also think it's weird it's considered "right wing" to be against transgender. Like it's historically left wing to be against big pharma, cosmetic surgery, and men invading women's spaces.
Muh big pharma
>men invading women's spaces
Who were the people who shut down men's clubs, who demand even to go into men's barbershops? What were they called again?
Also, this is literally the containment thread, why the complaint??
>>5955>>5954
But they're in no way escaping their biology and it's kind of crazy to think that they are. Birth control might make sense as liberation from biology, but inducing gynecomastia and lopping off body parts is a "liberation from biology"? Come on. It's all just a larp.
Maybe one day we'll really be able to change sex, though I think it's more likely we'll live in a simulation and choose our avatars before we "liberate ourselves from the oppression of biology"
I guess I'm not a leftist and don't believe in any sort of rhetoric of being liberated (too over-the-top for me), but being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool and would have been unimaginable before modern medicine. It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Anonymous :
3 days ago :
No.5962
>>5968
>>5962
You're correct about phenotype, I misused it. I was trying to refer to how one can change one's physical body with various treatments, even if it can't alter natal sex, and it often only works somewhat (let's face it: transgender people often don't pass), but phenotype means the expression of genes, so I had it the wrong way around. Thanks for the correction.
>And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
I said I wasn't a leftist, and I don't want cis women to be forced to be around trans women. No-one should be forced. Not SA victims nor prisoners nor ordinary people either.
Not to make this about politics, but it is typically the left who wants to use the power of the state in that way. The way I would have it is that each individual rape shelter can decide how it wants to look after its clients. The same for individual shops, locker rooms, etc. Surely if I run a restaurant I can decide I want to allow trans into what bathroom they choose, and if you ran one you would say no, and the public will decide which one they go to? This seems reasonable to me.
And it is absurd to say that the shutting-down of virtually all spaces men had without women were done because women were being shut out of business deals. Business deals are not being made in barbershops or ordinary pubs. I can only accept this argument for rich businessmen who will be at the very top-rank clubs, and the way to deal with this problem (if it is real? doubtful) is to make it a condition of their being employed that they not be a part of these clubs. Not ban it for all men!
It is just the height of absurdity that feminists destroyed the idea of single-sex spaces and now want them back. And it's not only toilets they want back, but woman-only book clubs and the like. I still remember when lesbians started demanding to get their hair cut in barbershops! Obviously done for attention.
>>5964
>being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
This is an interesting point and one not made often enough
>>5958
>>5952
Muh big pharma
>men invading women's spaces
Who were the people who shut down men's clubs, who demand even to go into men's barbershops? What were they called again?
Also, this is literally the containment thread, why the complaint??
>>5955
I guess I'm not a leftist and don't believe in any sort of rhetoric of being liberated (too over-the-top for me), but being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool and would have been unimaginable before modern medicine. It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Uh, you don't change your phenotype. Phenotype is the expression of your genes, not cosmetics brought about by drugs and surgery. This sort of ignorance makes me wish this shit was illegal, like you don't even know what you're doing to yourself, lmao.
And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
Anonymous :
3 days ago :
No.5964
>>5968
>>5962
You're correct about phenotype, I misused it. I was trying to refer to how one can change one's physical body with various treatments, even if it can't alter natal sex, and it often only works somewhat (let's face it: transgender people often don't pass), but phenotype means the expression of genes, so I had it the wrong way around. Thanks for the correction.
>And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
I said I wasn't a leftist, and I don't want cis women to be forced to be around trans women. No-one should be forced. Not SA victims nor prisoners nor ordinary people either.
Not to make this about politics, but it is typically the left who wants to use the power of the state in that way. The way I would have it is that each individual rape shelter can decide how it wants to look after its clients. The same for individual shops, locker rooms, etc. Surely if I run a restaurant I can decide I want to allow trans into what bathroom they choose, and if you ran one you would say no, and the public will decide which one they go to? This seems reasonable to me.
And it is absurd to say that the shutting-down of virtually all spaces men had without women were done because women were being shut out of business deals. Business deals are not being made in barbershops or ordinary pubs. I can only accept this argument for rich businessmen who will be at the very top-rank clubs, and the way to deal with this problem (if it is real? doubtful) is to make it a condition of their being employed that they not be a part of these clubs. Not ban it for all men!
It is just the height of absurdity that feminists destroyed the idea of single-sex spaces and now want them back. And it's not only toilets they want back, but woman-only book clubs and the like. I still remember when lesbians started demanding to get their hair cut in barbershops! Obviously done for attention.
>>5964
>being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
This is an interesting point and one not made often enough
>>5958
>>5952
Muh big pharma
>men invading women's spaces
Who were the people who shut down men's clubs, who demand even to go into men's barbershops? What were they called again?
Also, this is literally the containment thread, why the complaint??
>>5955
I guess I'm not a leftist and don't believe in any sort of rhetoric of being liberated (too over-the-top for me), but being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool and would have been unimaginable before modern medicine. It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
>But being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool
When I was around 12 I believe that was the way it worked. But no, "changing your gender" is about introducing hormones and performing gruesome surgeries. Of the visible changes plastic surgery is doing most of it. The idea of "changing your gender" is ridiculous, every single gene has your gender written on it.
>It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Besides the obvious fact of the debilitating side effects and that the numerous surgeries are only ever successful at fooling a limited number of people, being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
Indeed. These idiotes will not last long,
Now listen to this song,
We need strong rule by decree,
So a Roman Empire will be free.
>>5962
>>5958
Uh, you don't change your phenotype. Phenotype is the expression of your genes, not cosmetics brought about by drugs and surgery. This sort of ignorance makes me wish this shit was illegal, like you don't even know what you're doing to yourself, lmao.
And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
You're correct about phenotype, I misused it. I was trying to refer to how one can change one's physical body with various treatments, even if it can't alter natal sex, and it often only works somewhat (let's face it: transgender people often don't pass), but phenotype means the expression of genes, so I had it the wrong way around. Thanks for the correction.
>And it's so telling that you think women should give up their rape shelters and prisons and locker rooms because feminists took down men-only golf clubs or whatever because they were getting shut out of business deals.
I said I wasn't a leftist, and I don't want cis women to be forced to be around trans women. No-one should be forced. Not SA victims nor prisoners nor ordinary people either.
Not to make this about politics, but it is typically the left who wants to use the power of the state in that way. The way I would have it is that each individual rape shelter can decide how it wants to look after its clients. The same for individual shops, locker rooms, etc. Surely if I run a restaurant I can decide I want to allow trans into what bathroom they choose, and if you ran one you would say no, and the public will decide which one they go to? This seems reasonable to me.
And it is absurd to say that the shutting-down of virtually all spaces men had without women were done because women were being shut out of business deals. Business deals are not being made in barbershops or ordinary pubs. I can only accept this argument for rich businessmen who will be at the very top-rank clubs, and the way to deal with this problem (if it is real? doubtful) is to make it a condition of their being employed that they not be a part of these clubs. Not ban it for all men!
It is just the height of absurdity that feminists destroyed the idea of single-sex spaces and now want them back. And it's not only toilets they want back, but woman-only book clubs and the like. I still remember when lesbians started demanding to get their hair cut in barbershops! Obviously done for attention.
>>5964>>5958
>But being able to change your body to the phenotype of the opposite sex is pretty cool
When I was around 12 I believe that was the way it worked. But no, "changing your gender" is about introducing hormones and performing gruesome surgeries. Of the visible changes plastic surgery is doing most of it. The idea of "changing your gender" is ridiculous, every single gene has your gender written on it.
>It is liberating to be freed from a bodily prison, to look outside how you feel inside
Besides the obvious fact of the debilitating side effects and that the numerous surgeries are only ever successful at fooling a limited number of people, being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
>being "liberated" is a bad thing for almost everyone, since what they choose to do with their freedom is bad.
This is an interesting point and one not made often enough
Anonymous :
3 days ago :
No.5969
>>5971
>>5969
>The trani bathroom problem should be looked at as a subset of the broader set of issues with restrooms in civic life.
This seems reasonable and not incompatible with what I'm saying.
If you go to to the hip restaurant in the left-wing part of town, they will say trans can use the toilet that they want to use, and in the genteel, conservative part, they will take a harsher line
In general, the best way to deal with this is to let people walk their own path. We don't all need to think or act the same way
>Yes they are. Interpersonal communication ("networking") forms the fundament of nearly all of professional life. It's a simple in-group filtering behavior and will always exist. Are you a NEET or a fast food worker or something? This understanding of the world is giving lumpenprole.
If it really is your view that women had to be allowed into men's barbers because this is where business is really done, then that is frankly incredible.
It is also an argument against any sort of female-only space too. I note that we have a lot of female-only events which are explicitly designed for networking amongst women. Just remarkable to think that that can be allowed while barbershops etc aren't
I've looked into how these clubs function for their users (not because of the gender thing, but because I was interested in the extent to which they enable nepotism) and it seems like discussing business is rare in these. I also used to do menial jobs at a very fancy one when I was a teenager, and I got this sense too, though it's not like I was listening closely to what was going on.
>You think a trade worker gets his commands from a central server like a bot?
I can't actually understand this, but I think you are saying that it's not only rich businessmen who would be making 'deals' at these clubs. Actually, most people--male or female--are never making deals because they are employees
Still in awe that lesbian women can demand to have their hair cut in what would have been a male-only space, and women can have networking events solely for them in areas where networking actually does matter (mainly law)
Correct solution: remove crazy, authoritarian government interference, let businesses set their own rules as to what constitutes corruption/nepotism. Bad businesses will get wiped out by market forces. Let rape shelters decide their own rules (I totally support JK Rowling's venture Beira's Place for example)
Freedom of association = people going their own way, not causing friction with each other.
>Surely if I run a restaurant I can decide I want to allow trans into what bathroom they choose, and if you ran one you would say no, and the public will decide which one they go to? This seems reasonable to me.
The trani bathroom problem should be looked at as a subset of the broader set of issues with restrooms in civic life.
> Business deals are not being made in barbershops or ordinary pubs.
Yes they are. Interpersonal communication ("networking") forms the fundament of nearly all of professional life. It's a simple in-group filtering behavior and will always exist. Are you a NEET or a fast food worker or something? This understanding of the world is giving lumpenprole.
>I can only accept this argument for rich businessmen who will be at the very top-rank clubs
You are a fucking retard, or 15. You think a trade worker gets his commands from a central server like a bot? How do you imagine business is actually conducted in the real world? Seriously, put the phone down, take a look out your window for a few minutes of uninterrupted analysis, I beg of you.
>>5969
>Surely if I run a restaurant I can decide I want to allow trans into what bathroom they choose, and if you ran one you would say no, and the public will decide which one they go to? This seems reasonable to me.
The trani bathroom problem should be looked at as a subset of the broader set of issues with restrooms in civic life.
> Business deals are not being made in barbershops or ordinary pubs.
Yes they are. Interpersonal communication ("networking") forms the fundament of nearly all of professional life. It's a simple in-group filtering behavior and will always exist. Are you a NEET or a fast food worker or something? This understanding of the world is giving lumpenprole.
>I can only accept this argument for rich businessmen who will be at the very top-rank clubs
You are a fucking retard, or 15. You think a trade worker gets his commands from a central server like a bot? How do you imagine business is actually conducted in the real world? Seriously, put the phone down, take a look out your window for a few minutes of uninterrupted analysis, I beg of you.
>The trani bathroom problem should be looked at as a subset of the broader set of issues with restrooms in civic life.
This seems reasonable and not incompatible with what I'm saying.
If you go to to the hip restaurant in the left-wing part of town, they will say trans can use the toilet that they want to use, and in the genteel, conservative part, they will take a harsher line
In general, the best way to deal with this is to let people walk their own path. We don't all need to think or act the same way
>Yes they are. Interpersonal communication ("networking") forms the fundament of nearly all of professional life. It's a simple in-group filtering behavior and will always exist. Are you a NEET or a fast food worker or something? This understanding of the world is giving lumpenprole.
If it really is your view that women had to be allowed into men's barbers because this is where business is really done, then that is frankly incredible.
It is also an argument against any sort of female-only space too. I note that we have a lot of female-only events which are explicitly designed for networking amongst women. Just remarkable to think that that can be allowed while barbershops etc aren't
I've looked into how these clubs function for their users (not because of the gender thing, but because I was interested in the extent to which they enable nepotism) and it seems like discussing business is rare in these. I also used to do menial jobs at a very fancy one when I was a teenager, and I got this sense too, though it's not like I was listening closely to what was going on.
>You think a trade worker gets his commands from a central server like a bot?
I can't actually understand this, but I think you are saying that it's not only rich businessmen who would be making 'deals' at these clubs. Actually, most people--male or female--are never making deals because they are employees
Still in awe that lesbian women can demand to have their hair cut in what would have been a male-only space, and women can have networking events solely for them in areas where networking actually does matter (mainly law)
Correct solution: remove crazy, authoritarian government interference, let businesses set their own rules as to what constitutes corruption/nepotism. Bad businesses will get wiped out by market forces. Let rape shelters decide their own rules (I totally support JK Rowling's venture Beira's Place for example)
Freedom of association = people going their own way, not causing friction with each other.
Anonymous :
1 day ago :
No.5994
>>5995
>>5994
As I said, it is remarkable that butch lesbians demand entrance into places for men while demanding that women be allowed to have women-only book clubs, women-only apartment blocks, networking events, etc. Just extraordinary. What if men don't want rather unprepossessing women parking themselves in the room while they discuss what it's like to get an enlarged prostate, marriage problems, etc, in a space where there were only other men?
The only solution to the constant fighting between trans and GC feminists is allowing freedom of association: my shop/club/building, my rules. Let butch lesbians make their own shops and they can LARP as men there (the actual reason lesbians demand to do this is because they have autoandrophilia, like eg Lou Sullivan)
The barbershop issue is about price, not networking. Around here male barbershops only became a thing once it became illegal to charge different prices for male and female customers. A butch lesbian wanting a simple haircut not wanting to pay female prices for it is entirely understandable.
Anonymous :
1 day ago :
No.5995
>>5996
>>5995
Leslie Fineberg and Paul Preciado are actually closer examples as Sullivan seems to have been genuinely high-T and probably underwent some degree of masculinization in the womb
Preciado is like a physical representation of what a FtM version of Agp would be like
>>6022>>5995
Most feminists are fine with men having their own spaces so long as it's not excluding women from opportunities.
You might get an individual pushy person here or there, but that's true of everything. People often cite the boy scouts as an example of feminist overreach but there's never been an organized attempt to open boy scouts to girls, just individuals suing them unsuccessfully. The boy scouts ended up creating girls divisions themselves because they were hemorrhaging money from all their molestation lawsuits and needed to expand their customer base.
Do you really think men can't have their own book clubs?
>>6047>>5995
Lesbians do not have autoandrophilia. Straight women do. Some self-identified 'butch lesbians' are actually autoandrophilic straight girls who use women as a prop in their autoandrophilic sex fantasy, but they’re only superficially 'lesbian' because they lack true attraction to women.
>>5994
The barbershop issue is about price, not networking. Around here male barbershops only became a thing once it became illegal to charge different prices for male and female customers. A butch lesbian wanting a simple haircut not wanting to pay female prices for it is entirely understandable.
As I said, it is remarkable that butch lesbians demand entrance into places for men while demanding that women be allowed to have women-only book clubs, women-only apartment blocks, networking events, etc. Just extraordinary. What if men don't want rather unprepossessing women parking themselves in the room while they discuss what it's like to get an enlarged prostate, marriage problems, etc, in a space where there were only other men?
The only solution to the constant fighting between trans and GC feminists is allowing freedom of association: my shop/club/building, my rules. Let butch lesbians make their own shops and they can LARP as men there (the actual reason lesbians demand to do this is because they have autoandrophilia, like eg Lou Sullivan)
>>5995
>>5994
As I said, it is remarkable that butch lesbians demand entrance into places for men while demanding that women be allowed to have women-only book clubs, women-only apartment blocks, networking events, etc. Just extraordinary. What if men don't want rather unprepossessing women parking themselves in the room while they discuss what it's like to get an enlarged prostate, marriage problems, etc, in a space where there were only other men?
The only solution to the constant fighting between trans and GC feminists is allowing freedom of association: my shop/club/building, my rules. Let butch lesbians make their own shops and they can LARP as men there (the actual reason lesbians demand to do this is because they have autoandrophilia, like eg Lou Sullivan)
Leslie Fineberg and Paul Preciado are actually closer examples as Sullivan seems to have been genuinely high-T and probably underwent some degree of masculinization in the womb
Preciado is like a physical representation of what a FtM version of Agp would be like
Anonymous :
18 hours ago :
No.6022
>>6036
>>6022
Look up 'Men's Sheds' and how women forced their way into them.
Don't know anything about the Scouts but I would expect there is a lot going on behind the scenes with the leadership, which must have been political to a degree--these sorts of social trends are not organic (this is why societal trends shift so rapidly)
It's narcissism, but when lesbians like Preciado and Halberstram do it, it's because they have the paraphilia called autoandrophilia.
We need freedom of association. Both GC feminists and transgender people would benefit from it, and they will stop warring against each other.
>>5995
>>5994
As I said, it is remarkable that butch lesbians demand entrance into places for men while demanding that women be allowed to have women-only book clubs, women-only apartment blocks, networking events, etc. Just extraordinary. What if men don't want rather unprepossessing women parking themselves in the room while they discuss what it's like to get an enlarged prostate, marriage problems, etc, in a space where there were only other men?
The only solution to the constant fighting between trans and GC feminists is allowing freedom of association: my shop/club/building, my rules. Let butch lesbians make their own shops and they can LARP as men there (the actual reason lesbians demand to do this is because they have autoandrophilia, like eg Lou Sullivan)
Most feminists are fine with men having their own spaces so long as it's not excluding women from opportunities.
You might get an individual pushy person here or there, but that's true of everything. People often cite the boy scouts as an example of feminist overreach but there's never been an organized attempt to open boy scouts to girls, just individuals suing them unsuccessfully. The boy scouts ended up creating girls divisions themselves because they were hemorrhaging money from all their molestation lawsuits and needed to expand their customer base.
Do you really think men can't have their own book clubs?
Anonymous :
9 hours ago :
No.6036
>>6043
>>6036
I looked it up - seems like they exist all over the place. Good for them.
>>6044>>6036
And good luck with your AGP. I'm not sure you set out to further link AGP with men's rights, but if so, good job.
>>6022
>>5995
Most feminists are fine with men having their own spaces so long as it's not excluding women from opportunities.
You might get an individual pushy person here or there, but that's true of everything. People often cite the boy scouts as an example of feminist overreach but there's never been an organized attempt to open boy scouts to girls, just individuals suing them unsuccessfully. The boy scouts ended up creating girls divisions themselves because they were hemorrhaging money from all their molestation lawsuits and needed to expand their customer base.
Do you really think men can't have their own book clubs?
Look up 'Men's Sheds' and how women forced their way into them.
Don't know anything about the Scouts but I would expect there is a lot going on behind the scenes with the leadership, which must have been political to a degree--these sorts of social trends are not organic (this is why societal trends shift so rapidly)
It's narcissism, but when lesbians like Preciado and Halberstram do it, it's because they have the paraphilia called autoandrophilia.
We need freedom of association. Both GC feminists and transgender people would benefit from it, and they will stop warring against each other.
>>6036
>>6022
Look up 'Men's Sheds' and how women forced their way into them.
Don't know anything about the Scouts but I would expect there is a lot going on behind the scenes with the leadership, which must have been political to a degree--these sorts of social trends are not organic (this is why societal trends shift so rapidly)
It's narcissism, but when lesbians like Preciado and Halberstram do it, it's because they have the paraphilia called autoandrophilia.
We need freedom of association. Both GC feminists and transgender people would benefit from it, and they will stop warring against each other.
I looked it up - seems like they exist all over the place. Good for them.
>>6036
>>6022
Look up 'Men's Sheds' and how women forced their way into them.
Don't know anything about the Scouts but I would expect there is a lot going on behind the scenes with the leadership, which must have been political to a degree--these sorts of social trends are not organic (this is why societal trends shift so rapidly)
It's narcissism, but when lesbians like Preciado and Halberstram do it, it's because they have the paraphilia called autoandrophilia.
We need freedom of association. Both GC feminists and transgender people would benefit from it, and they will stop warring against each other.
And good luck with your AGP. I'm not sure you set out to further link AGP with men's rights, but if so, good job.
>>5995
>>5994
As I said, it is remarkable that butch lesbians demand entrance into places for men while demanding that women be allowed to have women-only book clubs, women-only apartment blocks, networking events, etc. Just extraordinary. What if men don't want rather unprepossessing women parking themselves in the room while they discuss what it's like to get an enlarged prostate, marriage problems, etc, in a space where there were only other men?
The only solution to the constant fighting between trans and GC feminists is allowing freedom of association: my shop/club/building, my rules. Let butch lesbians make their own shops and they can LARP as men there (the actual reason lesbians demand to do this is because they have autoandrophilia, like eg Lou Sullivan)
Lesbians do not have autoandrophilia. Straight women do. Some self-identified 'butch lesbians' are actually autoandrophilic straight girls who use women as a prop in their autoandrophilic sex fantasy, but they’re only superficially 'lesbian' because they lack true attraction to women.