Born 974AD. Blind academic, poet. Vegan and Skeptic. "You are diseased in understanding and religion. Come to me, that you may hear something of sound truth. Do not unjustly eat fish the water has given up, and do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals, Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught for their young, not for noble ladies. And do not grieve the unsuspecting birds by taking their eggs; for injustice is the worst of crimes. And spare the honey which the bees get industriously from the flowers of fragrant plants; For they did not store it that it might belong to others, nor did they gather it for bounty and gifts. I washed my hands of all this; and wish that I had perceived my way before my hair went gray!"
Anonymous :
46 days ago :
№ 12711
>>12712
>>12711
no problem and don't apologise for tangents. My parents didn't justify consumption of animal products by citing religion but rather inconvenience, which might be more fucked up lol. I seriously believe that most people don't go vegan for this very reason whatever else they might assert. dairy especially is in everything
Unbelievably based, thanks for sharing. I love the sublime feeling one gets when they read something from the past that not only resonates today but seems to echo 1:1 issues and assumptions we think are "modern".
>For they did not store it that it might belong to others, nor did they gather it for bounty and gifts.
When I was a tween and started to object to eating meat I heard from relatives and others the following explanation: "God put animals on the Earth for humans to consume". Even at the time it struck me as a bone-headed "just-so" justification for something that everyone knew was kind of wrong but continued anyway. Now of course I have the rhetoric and vocabulary to describe that layman understanding and usage of religion to explain "how things are". Anyway, sorry for the tangent.
>>12711
Unbelievably based, thanks for sharing. I love the sublime feeling one gets when they read something from the past that not only resonates today but seems to echo 1:1 issues and assumptions we think are "modern".
>For they did not store it that it might belong to others, nor did they gather it for bounty and gifts.
When I was a tween and started to object to eating meat I heard from relatives and others the following explanation: "God put animals on the Earth for humans to consume". Even at the time it struck me as a bone-headed "just-so" justification for something that everyone knew was kind of wrong but continued anyway. Now of course I have the rhetoric and vocabulary to describe that layman understanding and usage of religion to explain "how things are". Anyway, sorry for the tangent.
no problem and don't apologise for tangents. My parents didn't justify consumption of animal products by citing religion but rather inconvenience, which might be more fucked up lol. I seriously believe that most people don't go vegan for this very reason whatever else they might assert. dairy especially is in everything
Very interesting post. I always considered the refusal to even eat honey to be a ridiculous purity signal by contemporary vegans but it's interesting to see that someone else derived the same proscription in an entirely different context.
Another fire post, we've been blessed recently. Gotta get back to cutting down on meat consumption.
Fascinating quote.
I myself am a meat eater,but I do respect the commitments that he made towards his own beliefs.
Anonymous :
45 days ago :
№ 12734
>>12736
>>12734
>Advocated for the strict seclusion of women, against teaching women to read and write.
>he's just like me
Anon, what?
>>12740>>12734
>an otherwise highly progressive figure from the past is very misogynistic
more at 11
> Born in the city of al-Ma'arra (present-day Ma'arrat al-Nu'man, Syria) during the later Abbasid era, he became blind at a young age from smallpox but nonetheless studied in nearby Aleppo, then in Tripoli and Antioch. Producing popular poems in Baghdad, he refused to sell his texts. In 1010, he returned to Syria after his mother began declining in health, and continued writing, which gained him local respect.
> Described by various scholars as a "pessimistic freethinker", al-Ma'arri was a controversial rationalist of his time, known for challenging superstition and dogmatism. His written works exhibit a fixation on the study of language and its historical development, known as philology. He was pessimistic about life, describing himself as "a double prisoner" of blindness and isolation. Because his poetry fiercely critiqued the religious practices of his era, several critics interpreted his work as an attack on Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism, with some historians asserting he became a deist. However, in response to contemporary accusations of heresy stemming from these poetic critiques, al-Ma'arri authored Zajr al-Nabeh. In this text, he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
> He advocated social justice and lived a secluded, ascetic lifestyle. He was a vegan, known in his time as a moral vegetarian, entreating: "Do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals / Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught for their young."[11] Al-Ma'arri held an antinatalist outlook, in line with his general pessimism, suggesting that children should not be born to spare them of the pains and suffering of life. Saqt az-Zand, Luzumiyat, and Risalat al-Ghufran are among his main works.
> Consistent with his pervasive pessimism, al-Ma'arri harbored a deep skepticism regarding gender relations and advocated for the strict seclusion of women. As analyzed by the Egyptian scholar Taha Hussein, al-Ma'arri advised against teaching women to read or write to shelter them from societal corruption, and controversially argued that the Hajj pilgrimage should not be obligatory for them.
Oh man… he’s just like me except blind and Muslim.
reddit philosopher sorry bruh
Anonymous :
45 days ago :
№ 12736
>>12737
>>12736
Yeah that was the part I meant that was just like me.
>>12734
> Born in the city of al-Ma'arra (present-day Ma'arrat al-Nu'man, Syria) during the later Abbasid era, he became blind at a young age from smallpox but nonetheless studied in nearby Aleppo, then in Tripoli and Antioch. Producing popular poems in Baghdad, he refused to sell his texts. In 1010, he returned to Syria after his mother began declining in health, and continued writing, which gained him local respect.
> Described by various scholars as a "pessimistic freethinker", al-Ma'arri was a controversial rationalist of his time, known for challenging superstition and dogmatism. His written works exhibit a fixation on the study of language and its historical development, known as philology. He was pessimistic about life, describing himself as "a double prisoner" of blindness and isolation. Because his poetry fiercely critiqued the religious practices of his era, several critics interpreted his work as an attack on Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism, with some historians asserting he became a deist. However, in response to contemporary accusations of heresy stemming from these poetic critiques, al-Ma'arri authored Zajr al-Nabeh. In this text, he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
> He advocated social justice and lived a secluded, ascetic lifestyle. He was a vegan, known in his time as a moral vegetarian, entreating: "Do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals / Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught for their young."[11] Al-Ma'arri held an antinatalist outlook, in line with his general pessimism, suggesting that children should not be born to spare them of the pains and suffering of life. Saqt az-Zand, Luzumiyat, and Risalat al-Ghufran are among his main works.
> Consistent with his pervasive pessimism, al-Ma'arri harbored a deep skepticism regarding gender relations and advocated for the strict seclusion of women. As analyzed by the Egyptian scholar Taha Hussein, al-Ma'arri advised against teaching women to read or write to shelter them from societal corruption, and controversially argued that the Hajj pilgrimage should not be obligatory for them.
Oh man… he’s just like me except blind and Muslim.
>Advocated for the strict seclusion of women, against teaching women to read and write.
>he's just like me
Anon, what?
>>12734
> Born in the city of al-Ma'arra (present-day Ma'arrat al-Nu'man, Syria) during the later Abbasid era, he became blind at a young age from smallpox but nonetheless studied in nearby Aleppo, then in Tripoli and Antioch. Producing popular poems in Baghdad, he refused to sell his texts. In 1010, he returned to Syria after his mother began declining in health, and continued writing, which gained him local respect.
> Described by various scholars as a "pessimistic freethinker", al-Ma'arri was a controversial rationalist of his time, known for challenging superstition and dogmatism. His written works exhibit a fixation on the study of language and its historical development, known as philology. He was pessimistic about life, describing himself as "a double prisoner" of blindness and isolation. Because his poetry fiercely critiqued the religious practices of his era, several critics interpreted his work as an attack on Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism, with some historians asserting he became a deist. However, in response to contemporary accusations of heresy stemming from these poetic critiques, al-Ma'arri authored Zajr al-Nabeh. In this text, he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
> He advocated social justice and lived a secluded, ascetic lifestyle. He was a vegan, known in his time as a moral vegetarian, entreating: "Do not desire as food the flesh of slaughtered animals / Or the white milk of mothers who intended its pure draught for their young."[11] Al-Ma'arri held an antinatalist outlook, in line with his general pessimism, suggesting that children should not be born to spare them of the pains and suffering of life. Saqt az-Zand, Luzumiyat, and Risalat al-Ghufran are among his main works.
> Consistent with his pervasive pessimism, al-Ma'arri harbored a deep skepticism regarding gender relations and advocated for the strict seclusion of women. As analyzed by the Egyptian scholar Taha Hussein, al-Ma'arri advised against teaching women to read or write to shelter them from societal corruption, and controversially argued that the Hajj pilgrimage should not be obligatory for them.
Oh man… he’s just like me except blind and Muslim.
>an otherwise highly progressive figure from the past is very misogynistic
more at 11
he was incredibly based, love this quote/poem(?) "O'er many a race the sun's bright net was spread
And loosed their pearls nor left them even a thread.
This dire World delights us, though all sup,
All whom she mothers, from one mortal cup.
A choice of ills: which rather of the twain
Wilt thou?—to perish or to live in pain?"
Anonymous :
44 days ago :
№ 12751
>>12752
>>12751
nah he was pretending, imagine openly opposing islam in an islamic country. dude was fending blasphemy accusations
>>12753
>he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
Islam explicitly allows meat consumption and encourages animal sacrifice on Eid. Bro was coping
>>12751
>he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
Islam explicitly allows meat consumption and encourages animal sacrifice on Eid. Bro was coping
nah he was pretending, imagine openly opposing islam in an islamic country. dude was fending blasphemy accusations
Anonymous :
44 days ago :
№ 12753
>>12756
>>12753
>You are diseased in understanding and religion.
Idk man seems pretty non-islamic to me to be saying something like that. While I do agree that not every scholar who is muslim has to be an exact certain way, there definitely were scholars who were straight up non-religious who had to LARP as religious in order to not get executed, both in the past and in the modern day.
>>12751
>he explicitly denied holding atheistic or anti-Islamic beliefs, clarifying that his verses targeted the corruption, hypocrisy, and ignorance of religious figures rather than the core tenets of the faith itself.
Islam explicitly allows meat consumption and encourages animal sacrifice on Eid. Bro was coping
>>12752>>12751
nah he was pretending, imagine openly opposing islam in an islamic country. dude was fending blasphemy accusations
His views are obviously not in line with mainstream Islamic thought but not every Muslim scholar who isn't 100% in line with Ibn Taymiyya is a secret non-Muslim.
Anonymous :
44 days ago :
№ 12756
>>12760
>>12756
The quote in the OP does not necessarily say what follows are tenets or requirements of Islam, for all we know he could've meant the following "sound truths" to be things that are self-evident to people with proper understanding of religion and piety. Since it's a translation it's hard to make any such judgements, but it's not impossible to interpret it in a way that would be in line with even the most Takfiri-Salafi thought, e.g. stating that it's something that's not required of all Muslims, and considering it an innovation but a meritorious one, and considering any religious practices like the Eid sacrifice the exception to the rule. It's not possible to extrapolate his entire religious beliefs from this alone.
Not that I'd be surprised if he had some seriously unorthodox views on other matters, but even then from what I've been able to gather he has high standing among modern Sufis and was a prolific writer/teacher, and I doubt he'd have achieved that if he was just LARPing. Also there are many Muslim sects that consider each other non-believers yet consider themselves Muslims, so even the question of whether his views are in line with mainstream thought or not is ultimately irrelevant to what he identified as.
His English Wikipedia article seems to have a long discussion on this too detailing how early Western scholarship rushed to brand him as non-religious while later study ended up being against that idea.
>>12753
>You are diseased in understanding and religion.
Idk man seems pretty non-islamic to me to be saying something like that. While I do agree that not every scholar who is muslim has to be an exact certain way, there definitely were scholars who were straight up non-religious who had to LARP as religious in order to not get executed, both in the past and in the modern day.
Anonymous :
44 days ago :
№ 12760
>>12792
>>12760
I retract my previous point then anon about him LARPing then, interesting post anon. I myself am not that well versed within the differences between the sunni islamic branches, though i've got some general knowledge of the differences between them.
If I'm not wrong,Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct? Kind of a direct parallel to salafism which is much more conservative and wanting to go back to muhammad's time. I do know some scant details about wahhabism which was a more revisionary form of islam created far later.
>>12756
>>12753
>You are diseased in understanding and religion.
Idk man seems pretty non-islamic to me to be saying something like that. While I do agree that not every scholar who is muslim has to be an exact certain way, there definitely were scholars who were straight up non-religious who had to LARP as religious in order to not get executed, both in the past and in the modern day.
The quote in the OP does not necessarily say what follows are tenets or requirements of Islam, for all we know he could've meant the following "sound truths" to be things that are self-evident to people with proper understanding of religion and piety. Since it's a translation it's hard to make any such judgements, but it's not impossible to interpret it in a way that would be in line with even the most Takfiri-Salafi thought, e.g. stating that it's something that's not required of all Muslims, and considering it an innovation but a meritorious one, and considering any religious practices like the Eid sacrifice the exception to the rule. It's not possible to extrapolate his entire religious beliefs from this alone.
Not that I'd be surprised if he had some seriously unorthodox views on other matters, but even then from what I've been able to gather he has high standing among modern Sufis and was a prolific writer/teacher, and I doubt he'd have achieved that if he was just LARPing. Also there are many Muslim sects that consider each other non-believers yet consider themselves Muslims, so even the question of whether his views are in line with mainstream thought or not is ultimately irrelevant to what he identified as.
His English Wikipedia article seems to have a long discussion on this too detailing how early Western scholarship rushed to brand him as non-religious while later study ended up being against that idea.
Anonymous :
43 days ago :
№ 12792
>>12796
>>12792
Generally Salafi and Wahhabi are used interchangeably, referring to Sunni Muslims who stick strictly to the Quran and the Sunnah and follow literalist interpretations, but Wahhabi is seen more as a derogatory label and is used by people who are against Salafism. Probably because it anchors the beginning of the movement to the 18th century.
>Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct?
Yes, Sufism focuses a lot more on the spiritual aspects of religion, and has practices like group Dhikr, meditation, seclusion etc. that are not found in mainstream Islam. It also emphasizes Sheikh/Murid relations, and the Sheikhs have chains of transmissions called Silsila that trace back to the Prophet. If you search "Sufi Silsilas" on Google Images you'll find some nice tree graphs outlining the major Sufi orders. So even though they can engage in practices that don't exist or even seemingly go against the practices detailed in the Sunni hadith books the Silsilas give them legitimacy, at least within their own orders.
>>12760
>>12756
The quote in the OP does not necessarily say what follows are tenets or requirements of Islam, for all we know he could've meant the following "sound truths" to be things that are self-evident to people with proper understanding of religion and piety. Since it's a translation it's hard to make any such judgements, but it's not impossible to interpret it in a way that would be in line with even the most Takfiri-Salafi thought, e.g. stating that it's something that's not required of all Muslims, and considering it an innovation but a meritorious one, and considering any religious practices like the Eid sacrifice the exception to the rule. It's not possible to extrapolate his entire religious beliefs from this alone.
Not that I'd be surprised if he had some seriously unorthodox views on other matters, but even then from what I've been able to gather he has high standing among modern Sufis and was a prolific writer/teacher, and I doubt he'd have achieved that if he was just LARPing. Also there are many Muslim sects that consider each other non-believers yet consider themselves Muslims, so even the question of whether his views are in line with mainstream thought or not is ultimately irrelevant to what he identified as.
His English Wikipedia article seems to have a long discussion on this too detailing how early Western scholarship rushed to brand him as non-religious while later study ended up being against that idea.
I retract my previous point then anon about him LARPing then, interesting post anon. I myself am not that well versed within the differences between the sunni islamic branches, though i've got some general knowledge of the differences between them.
If I'm not wrong,Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct? Kind of a direct parallel to salafism which is much more conservative and wanting to go back to muhammad's time. I do know some scant details about wahhabism which was a more revisionary form of islam created far later.
Anonymous :
43 days ago :
№ 12796
>>12799
>>12796
Damn,had no idea that wahabbi and salafi were the same thing. I thought that wahabbi islam was more of an arab supremacy form of islam if I'm being honest,given that it's pushed heavily by the saudis in africa.
I do know that there's another branch of islam aside from the sunni and shia in the form of ibadi islam, and I do know that they originated in Oman, and that they were part of the succession crisis that happened after muhammad's death,but I don't exactly know much about the specific details. If im not wrong, while the Shia had Ali as the next ruler, the sunni had the "rightly guided caliphs", while Ibadi islam evolved to be something a bit more democratic?
>>12792
>>12760
I retract my previous point then anon about him LARPing then, interesting post anon. I myself am not that well versed within the differences between the sunni islamic branches, though i've got some general knowledge of the differences between them.
If I'm not wrong,Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct? Kind of a direct parallel to salafism which is much more conservative and wanting to go back to muhammad's time. I do know some scant details about wahhabism which was a more revisionary form of islam created far later.
Generally Salafi and Wahhabi are used interchangeably, referring to Sunni Muslims who stick strictly to the Quran and the Sunnah and follow literalist interpretations, but Wahhabi is seen more as a derogatory label and is used by people who are against Salafism. Probably because it anchors the beginning of the movement to the 18th century.
>Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct?
Yes, Sufism focuses a lot more on the spiritual aspects of religion, and has practices like group Dhikr, meditation, seclusion etc. that are not found in mainstream Islam. It also emphasizes Sheikh/Murid relations, and the Sheikhs have chains of transmissions called Silsila that trace back to the Prophet. If you search "Sufi Silsilas" on Google Images you'll find some nice tree graphs outlining the major Sufi orders. So even though they can engage in practices that don't exist or even seemingly go against the practices detailed in the Sunni hadith books the Silsilas give them legitimacy, at least within their own orders.
Anonymous :
43 days ago :
№ 12799
>>12802
>>12799
I don't know too much about the first/second fitnah to talk about them, but the Sunni do recognize Ali as one of the rightly guided caliphs, while Shia reject the other three that came before him. I think Ibadis only recognize the first two.
>>12796
>>12792
Generally Salafi and Wahhabi are used interchangeably, referring to Sunni Muslims who stick strictly to the Quran and the Sunnah and follow literalist interpretations, but Wahhabi is seen more as a derogatory label and is used by people who are against Salafism. Probably because it anchors the beginning of the movement to the 18th century.
>Sufism is more of a mystic form of islam, correct?
Yes, Sufism focuses a lot more on the spiritual aspects of religion, and has practices like group Dhikr, meditation, seclusion etc. that are not found in mainstream Islam. It also emphasizes Sheikh/Murid relations, and the Sheikhs have chains of transmissions called Silsila that trace back to the Prophet. If you search "Sufi Silsilas" on Google Images you'll find some nice tree graphs outlining the major Sufi orders. So even though they can engage in practices that don't exist or even seemingly go against the practices detailed in the Sunni hadith books the Silsilas give them legitimacy, at least within their own orders.
Damn,had no idea that wahabbi and salafi were the same thing. I thought that wahabbi islam was more of an arab supremacy form of islam if I'm being honest,given that it's pushed heavily by the saudis in africa.
I do know that there's another branch of islam aside from the sunni and shia in the form of ibadi islam, and I do know that they originated in Oman, and that they were part of the succession crisis that happened after muhammad's death,but I don't exactly know much about the specific details. If im not wrong, while the Shia had Ali as the next ruler, the sunni had the "rightly guided caliphs", while Ibadi islam evolved to be something a bit more democratic?
>>12799
>>12796
Damn,had no idea that wahabbi and salafi were the same thing. I thought that wahabbi islam was more of an arab supremacy form of islam if I'm being honest,given that it's pushed heavily by the saudis in africa.
I do know that there's another branch of islam aside from the sunni and shia in the form of ibadi islam, and I do know that they originated in Oman, and that they were part of the succession crisis that happened after muhammad's death,but I don't exactly know much about the specific details. If im not wrong, while the Shia had Ali as the next ruler, the sunni had the "rightly guided caliphs", while Ibadi islam evolved to be something a bit more democratic?
I don't know too much about the first/second fitnah to talk about them, but the Sunni do recognize Ali as one of the rightly guided caliphs, while Shia reject the other three that came before him. I think Ibadis only recognize the first two.
Anonymous :
27 days ago :
№ 13205
>>13209
>>13205
thanks for sharing.
>The closing remarks are made by an enigmatic figure described as "Persian by breeding, Arabian by faith, a ḥanīf by confession, Iraqi in culture, Hebrew in lore, Christian in manner, Damascene in devotion, Greek in science, Indian in discernment, Sufi in intimations."[b][21] The man suggests that humans have yet to fully realise their potential.[c] The trial abruptly concludes with the verdict being in mankind's favour
:(
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Animals_versus_Man
>Fī aṣnāf al-ḥayawānāt wa-ʿajāʾib hayākilihā wa-gharāʾib aḥwālihā (Arabic: في أصناف الحيوانات وعجائب هياكلها وغرائب أحوالها),[1] known in English as The Case of the Animals versus Man Before the King of the Jinn,[a] is an epistle written by the Brethren of Purity (Ikhwān al-Ṣafā) in the 960s and first published as Epistle 22 in the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity. The longest Encyclopedia entry, The Case of the Animals versus Man revolves around a group of talking animals who testify against humans in a session chaired by the ruler of the jinn. It has been favourably received by literary critics and translated into several languages.
>>13205
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Animals_versus_Man
>Fī aṣnāf al-ḥayawānāt wa-ʿajāʾib hayākilihā wa-gharāʾib aḥwālihā (Arabic: في أصناف الحيوانات وعجائب هياكلها وغرائب أحوالها),[1] known in English as The Case of the Animals versus Man Before the King of the Jinn,[a] is an epistle written by the Brethren of Purity (Ikhwān al-Ṣafā) in the 960s and first published as Epistle 22 in the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity. The longest Encyclopedia entry, The Case of the Animals versus Man revolves around a group of talking animals who testify against humans in a session chaired by the ruler of the jinn. It has been favourably received by literary critics and translated into several languages.
thanks for sharing.
>The closing remarks are made by an enigmatic figure described as "Persian by breeding, Arabian by faith, a ḥanīf by confession, Iraqi in culture, Hebrew in lore, Christian in manner, Damascene in devotion, Greek in science, Indian in discernment, Sufi in intimations."[b][21] The man suggests that humans have yet to fully realise their potential.[c] The trial abruptly concludes with the verdict being in mankind's favour
:(
That's a banger line. I like that for some people there's always been a tendency to make oneself a sort of cultural collage, something I relate to as well
A fascinating quote, even if moral veganism is somewhat wrong