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[Thread Archived] Explanations vs Choices :: Demographics vs Freedom : Anonymous : 49 days ago : No.10599

I've got a culture-war hook for you: Mainstream center-left culture has a self-imposed deliberate ignorance on certain topics. There are "correct" explanations on several issues that are cliched and unexamined. Item 1: Right-Wing Backlash on Immigration Observation: Every developed country (with a few noteworthy examples) has a right-wing anti-immigration party that has surged in popularity over the past decade. Acceptable center-left explanation: We are facing actual Nazis! This is actually German National Socialism on the rise! Item 2: Gerontocratic Debt Observation: Social transfers in economies throughout the developed world have allowed pensioners to accumulate historically exceptional wealth at the generational scale. Acceptable center-left explanation: The rich need to pay their fair share! Item 3: The Male Loneliness Crisis Observation: Men are so unwanted they will shoot themselves in the brain (a lot!) Acceptable center-left explanation: Patriarchy is the problem! Men need to dismantle patriarchal expectations about vulnerability and sexuality. Men need to give up their "hyper" independence! Item 4: Cratering Educational achievement Observation: Throughout the developed world, school-aged teenagers are showing declining achievement at graduation. Acceptable center-left explanation: It's No Child Left Behind! It's COVID! It's social media! It's "Sold a Story"! Before you suspect that I'm picking on the center-left because I'm a rightoid -- think again! I'm using politics for engagement bait, and I'm picking on my own side, but I wanted to use this example because the social function of the center-left is to serve as the complaints department for both the left and the right. Everybody gets away with picking on the center-left because that's the social function of the center-left. The problem I want to raise about each of these is that it is a feature, not a bug, that they are cliched and unexamined. They are responses that are meant to shut down dialogue, not contribute to it. I want to highlight that these are "explanations," as opposed to stories, justifications, etc. And the thing about an explanation is that it implies a degree of necessity. EG The water froze into ice because its temperature was cooler than 0 C. A story is about something that didn't necessarily have to happen -- Gavrilo Princip shot Franz Ferdinand because he thought it was a good idea. An explanation is the end of a discussion because there is some kind of universal law that necessitates the movement from input to output. But there's nothing necessary about Leopold Lojka stalling the engine of the Crown Prince's car directly in front of Gavrilo Princip. Explanations are uniquely ill-suited for human affairs. Why did the Golden Horde turn back before it conquered Europe? You could explain it by saying that the early spring thaws in Hungary prevented the Golden Horde from pushing through. If you want such an explanation, you have to make it seem like the Golden Horde is determinate, like a machine or a natural mechanism. But of course the truth of the situation is that the Golden Horde turned back because Ogodei Khan died and it seemed like a good idea to the leaders that they should go pick a new Khan. It was a choice. It's precisely the chosen-ness that makes this event stick out in the history textbook, just like the Chinese decision to stop exploring the Pacific. It didn't have to be that way, but it was. What the ideologue doesn't see, or maybe doesn't want to admit, is that we're at a decision point for all of the above. The things that the center-left would have us do (decriminalize migration; support inter-generational transfer as socialist incrementalism; adapt male socialization to fit feminine models; socially engineer a multi-cultural society) are merely *options* among others. I realize that this might sound banal but it's really quite important. A typical person with explanations truly does not face up to the reality that they need to convince *everybody* that their way is better. Politicians don't even bother saying to the electorate, "I have a plan for X and I think you should choose it over the alternatives because of A, B, and C." Instead, it is simply assumed that they know best, and once the electorate / consumer / society is exhausted from a tantrum then everybody will be lead by a (captured) technocratic elite into a golden dawn of pre-selected options. To stake out one farther claim, I think that this kind of thinking is based on analytics-driven demographic analysis. Hollywood, for instance, knows the demographics of their ideal four-quadrant movie and they'll reverse engineer everything else about the movie to hit that demographic. Politicans, likewise, have a target electorate that they'll synthesize by twisting the dials of turnout and persuasion. The basic premise of applying statistics to human affairs rests on this kind of thinking: *When we analyze the success of A, we look at demographics B1, B2, B3... . So now we will generalize across demographics and predict that the same trends will hold true for C.* I will concede that maybe this kind of thinking works for getting ad-click conversion rates for margarine or whatever. But the problem is in transferring it over to other forms of human affairs. We are a lot freer than the marketers acknowledge! We really can choose a different world!

Anonymous : 48 days ago : No.10615
what are *your* thoughts on the male loneliness epidemic
Anonymous : 48 days ago : No.10616 >>10617
>>10616 Feel free to defend the conventional positions if you agree with them. Otherwise, please drop the catty quasipolitical angle
>>10829
>>10742 OP here (I am cooler than you) I didn't use ChatGPT to write it. You got a false positive from the use of antithesis. >>10616 I have read more books than you by a country mile. That's why I don't have to use affected dismissiveness.
The tone of your post is irritating, the logical flow is a jumble, and even though you demarcate yourself as 'not a rightoid' you center your entire worldview on their perspective, obviously, since you don't have an academic context to stand on, only the content you've read online. But you clearly yearn to break out of the zoomer trap, so I am a little sympathetic. You should really read a book though.
Anonymous : 48 days ago : No.10617 >>10742
>>10617 He's saying that it reads like ChatGPT. It may just be that you are autistic instead.
>>10616
The tone of your post is irritating, the logical flow is a jumble, and even though you demarcate yourself as 'not a rightoid' you center your entire worldview on their perspective, obviously, since you don't have an academic context to stand on, only the content you've read online. But you clearly yearn to break out of the zoomer trap, so I am a little sympathetic. You should really read a book though.
Feel free to defend the conventional positions if you agree with them. Otherwise, please drop the catty quasipolitical angle
Anonymous : 44 days ago : No.10668 >>10669
>>10668 What marginal tax regime would you propose as a fair share
blaming old people for the rich not paying their fair share is even funnier than blaming the jews
Anonymous : 44 days ago : No.10669 >>10670
>>10669 it could cap at like 90 percent I think that's fair
>>10668
blaming old people for the rich not paying their fair share is even funnier than blaming the jews
What marginal tax regime would you propose as a fair share
Anonymous : 43 days ago : No.10670
>>10669
>>10668 What marginal tax regime would you propose as a fair share
it could cap at like 90 percent I think that's fair
Anonymous : 40 days ago : No.10742 >>10745
>>10742 Because everyone here is just an apolitical aesthete
>>10829
>>10742 OP here (I am cooler than you) I didn't use ChatGPT to write it. You got a false positive from the use of antithesis. >>10616 I have read more books than you by a country mile. That's why I don't have to use affected dismissiveness.
>>10617
>>10616 Feel free to defend the conventional positions if you agree with them. Otherwise, please drop the catty quasipolitical angle
He's saying that it reads like ChatGPT. It may just be that you are autistic instead.
Anonymous : 40 days ago : No.10745
>>10742
>>10617 He's saying that it reads like ChatGPT. It may just be that you are autistic instead.
Because everyone here is just an apolitical aesthete
Anonymous : 39 days ago : No.10751
The center left has no choice but to deflect. The right just takes the oportunity to externalise the crisis to some sort of corrupting, outside influence.
Anonymous : 32 days ago : No.10829
>>10742
>>10617 He's saying that it reads like ChatGPT. It may just be that you are autistic instead.
OP here (I am cooler than you) I didn't use ChatGPT to write it. You got a false positive from the use of antithesis. >>10616
The tone of your post is irritating, the logical flow is a jumble, and even though you demarcate yourself as 'not a rightoid' you center your entire worldview on their perspective, obviously, since you don't have an academic context to stand on, only the content you've read online. But you clearly yearn to break out of the zoomer trap, so I am a little sympathetic. You should really read a book though.
I have read more books than you by a country mile. That's why I don't have to use affected dismissiveness.
Anonymous : 27 days ago : No.10875
NOTE: I'm not center-left. I'm not even close. 1. Your examples are stupid. Here you use four examples. The first is so obviously not true that it isn't worth bothering with. Calling people Nazis is primarily a rhetorical tactic, because it is understood as negative across broad parts of populations in Western countries, and because current right wing parties discuss population replacement and ethno-nationalism. (Except of course with the ADF and NR, which have literal ties to Nazis) I think that you're not really being fair in the third example. The reason for any gender-specific phenomena is the power structure / set of norms that dictates gender. So the patriarchy must definitionally be the problem. Center-leftists don't usually get what patriarchy is, but they're not definitionally wrong. I just think that you'd don't like that their answer doesn't blame individual women for being mean to men. Their "over-simplistic and cliched" answer for the decline of youth education is 1) the education policy of the most powerful country in the west, 2) the most impactful event on education that directly correlates with steep drops in test scores, 3) the biggest cultural shift of the last 2 decades, and 4 ) the method of teaching one of two things measured by test scores. Like, I think if you had to blame something, this isn't a half-bad or shallow collection of things. 2: What do you think a political movement is? Like, a political movement / party has a position, other parties have different positions, and they make their arguments. The center-left can have convictions in individual things, but there are other parties with other options(at least in some cases), and those options are considered in the democratic process. 3: Complexity If you think that any one answer is overly simplistic, there are probably more in-depth reasons for that. A political ad has to be simplistic, and if you say "there is no debate" that's because you're looking at political ads and debates. But most of these issues have a lot of debate in nuance inside and outside of politics. Like, the "center-left" has a lot of indepth conversations about these things. You can go find them. They're right there. (Not that I'd listen to the center-left. Ezra Klein pisses me off.) Your discussion about education has a lot of academic research and debate, and education policy differs radically across regions in countries like the US (even among states with the same party in power).


Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air.
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