/pt/ – Petrarchan

In my experience, people are at least somewhat receptive to your ideas if you don't sound like you think you're better than them. Sure, there's an endless supply of unthinking automatons, but you don't exactly have to talk to them past the superficial. Tangentially, it's always a bit concerning when boards/forums come to more comprise laments on the state of their discourse rather than valuable contributions. A reflection of the general cultural malaise of the times. >>10362 I do agree obsessing over taste like it's some inert thing you just "possess" is silly, but to disregard all interactions with culture as mindless consumption is a ridiculous sentiment. If we can't derive meaning from culture, then there's not much that remains past sheer life-denying nihilism.

>>10362 What I found a long time ago is that "taste" just means "trying". When I talk to someone and they say, Oh my favorite artist is XYZ, and they cannot answer why or give me any reasons why I would care, then they haven't tried. They don't actually know. This is the reason why gatekeeping around certain artists was (and still is) a thing. It's like saying, "I love electronic music" but not knowing who Aphex Twin is. If you don't, you haven't tried. And knowing who he is is not the pinnacle of taste (because taste never ends, trying never "ends") but everyone who has "tried" electronic music should know who he is. Taste just means you bothered caring enough to explore and its painfully obvious to see those who don't explore -- they have literally nothing to say.

>>10362 RS-sphere cares about taste because that's all rich arthoes have to offer, so it's all they care about, and thus regulates access to their pants. They're all desire, not creativity or things I really care about like compassion or wisdom. My friends have watch parties and play games and we impose our tastes on each other that way. Most of them are Disney/Swiftie type people and that doesn't change the fact that I love them. I just try to sprinkle in some A24 or whatever. They will likely never change but they find value in what variety I bring to their life.

>>10362 Because taste is about half of making good art. If you can't see what's good or bad in other's works, how will you see it in your own?

>>10363 I get that. and I'm sorry if my tone was harsh, it's just that I've accepted that im not going to meet people irl who have the same taste as me and I've made internet communities substitute for that. I think most people who don't watch the latest on Netflix or read y/a fall in the same category as us, regardless of what their and our tastes are. so it's kind of wishful thinking to be part of a community based on taste in books and movies. even before the internet I believe you'd be hard pressed to find someone who understands and shares your tastes if your tastes veer towards any niche. that's just the way it is. I'm also cynical about this because I learnt my lesson a long time ago to keep what I I'm interested in to myself to not be judged for it. at some point I even tried to change what I read and watched to fit in with other people but I've stopped doing that now.

>>10374 Getting serious shadow puppet gooner vibes from this one

>>10374 t. a person of low culture

>>10584 This is the most common retort the low-cultured individual makes. No, I'm not mentally arrested, I'm just tired of dealing with people who judge me for having taste beyond "normie". I'll give you an example. I was reading a Nabokov book recently and was chuckling. A woman who is an acquaintance piped up and said, "oh, what's so funny?" I read her the passage and she said, "That's not laugh out loud funny." Then she made the comment, "There's no way you're getting anything out of that book, are you?" She said this because there's no way she would ever be able to understand the text. Anyway, thanks for bumping my thread, low-IQ-kun.

>>10584 Your comment is such a good bridge to many other topics, actually. One good topic is the lie that having taste is a young persons' game. Taste should never end. The whole point of taste is to be able to have an actual opinion on something because you tried it. It's grating listening to someone denigrate something they've never tried, especially when there's sour grapes involved. Disavowing the non-taste of someone who doesn't have the agency or the critical faculties to choose what to spend their free time doing or consuming is extremely appropriate, especially as you grow older.

>>10584 If he wanted to be performative then there are much better ways to go about it than coming to backwater anonymous forum with maybe 20 whole users on it.

>>10588 I can relate. I was reading Rene Guenon in class the other day and a girl next to me asked what I was reading. I calmly explained to her the subject of sacred science but barely 5 minutes in I could see she was losing interest. TikTok addled zoomers have no attention span for anything that isn’t love island discourse. I nonetheless continued in my explanation but I could tell she wasn’t absorbing any of it. What am I to do?

>>10588 I'd wager a lot of us reading this in large American cities or less nosy parts of Europe can't easily imagine someone doing this. Once I thought of visits to the small town my dad grew up in I immediately could. Where I live people don't often share my interests — this isn't great but I think everyone has to deal with that a lot — but they're at least receptive to them if I'm to theirs in turn. Where are you located, generally? A bigger problem for me personally is my more normative interests trending towards eliminating gatekeeping, which is noticeable both irl and online. >>10591 The reaction is usually the same if you keep it to an elevator pitch. Maybe 90 seconds is the sweet spot.

>>10591 Ha, I can't tell if you're just calling me an autist or if this was a genuine reply.

I can of course sympathise with OP, despite the fact that you can generally get an interesting conversation or two out of even the densest moron by simply being on good terms with them. In recent years, I've began the slow process of excluding myself from online spaces offering little value, and so am frankly left with the problem that if you expect only to interact with people on your level, as you learn and study, your pool shrinks until you emerge at the end of your life a brilliant hermit, whose knowledge inversely matches his impact on the world. I've left boards, chatrooms, forums, and now at the tail-end of this phase of the internet linger in these half-started spaces that themselves might be nothing but the pained bitter resentments of others like me who hope for something better. >>10591 A little disingenuous. You don't think there's a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism, particularly in the States, wherein you might be so rebuked by revealing even the slightest interest in something challenging? We softened our individualistic cultures for decades by telling people that they're fine just the way they are and that everything is utterly subjective.

>>10588 I'd wager a lot of us reading this in large American cities or less nosy parts of Europe can't easily imagine someone doing this. Once I thought of visits to the small town my dad grew up in I immediately could. Where I live people don't often share my interests — this isn't great but I think everyone has to deal with that a lot — but they're at least receptive to them if I'm to theirs in turn. Where are you located, generally? A bigger problem for me personally is my more normative interests trending towards eliminating gatekeeping, which is noticeable both irl and online. >>10591 The reaction is usually the same if you keep it to an elevator pitch. Maybe 90 seconds is the sweet spot.

>>10594 >I'd wager a lot of us reading this in large American cities or less nosy parts of Europe can't easily imagine someone doing this. You're right, I'm not in a large American city. But my friends and acquaintances are and, by and large, they would be considered "intellectual" to anyone who doesn't know them. They have PhDs! but what I've found is that PhDs doesn't mean anything, intellectually.

>>10595 Certainly wouldn't blame you for dismissing anyone who'd seriously hold a mutual relationship contingent on appreciating Love Island; I'm sure you can do a bit better than that. The immediate problem with online spaces I see is that everywhere that purports to be a higher-brow escape from the decline and decadence falls prey to the allure of social commentary. I'd much rather there exist a place rich with intellectualism and culture than a den of resentful losers whom society no longer accepts or benefits, q.v. every RS space.

>>10596 No contingencies, I give anything on screen a fair shake, I can't do "relaxed" watching. But a lot of women like to watch reality shows without paying much attention in the way men in my life watch sports or police procedurals. In turn they let me give rambling era rankings of the slop of choice. Idk if all the cool smart people are hanging out without us every weekend or if they're all getting siloed into adjacent algospaces. My opinion is pretty close to a coin flip. Most of the people I spend time with are top 5% US income and in "respectable" careers (i.e. not tech or le chapo big red sons, doctors/lawyers/writers/low academia) and they are not pursuing intellectualism or culture more than the average incel. But I don't know what 1%/big-time academia lifestyle is like.

>>10597 All that noise is the same for all the addicts; anything to keep the silence out, to keep from hearing that pleading inner voice. I don't think it's useful, anymore at least, to consider pure, unrefined intellect as the ideal, as most everyone is swept along in the digital flow, but rather him who actually manages to actively stand outside it more than most. I'm sure there are a hundred thousand inert geniuses drifting in such discomfort without ever managing a change. Volition's the real currency of this age. Not that there are any easy solutions. Connective software has done nothing but sever connections en masse. None of our cultures particularly promote a keen interest in something for its own sake. Forums either represent a declining mean or nothing at all. There's a terrible malaise in the air and no one much believes in anything. Nearly everyone alive today has been indoctrinated to think that one thing cannot be greater than another; an individualism that never questions itself, or as Asimov wrote about ignorance v. knowledge. Even the "smartest" scoff at those who claim to know what's good or true, that there's some meaning in this world.

>>10601 I think we’re approaching this from different directions. I don’t know that postmodernism really “did” anything. The perfection of visual motif of the nude or resurrection is now applied to the texture of a film or the alienation of an abstraction. I’m dancing on Hockney’s grave with you but Cavallini does less for me than Pasolini. Hack/pass clang. Emotional response becomes more detached, is that your beef? Literature got a lot worse, I agree. But the same places that taught me about post-modernism also made me listen to interminable hours of classical music and I simply disagree that the atom bomb ruined everything. Hell I don’t even like Pet Sounds. All the people saying 2+2=5 send their kids to $25,000 preschools, it’s been decades of this game. This is another thing where, like I said earlier, location and context is valuable. I talk to people who think religious art is the only kind with any value pretty often. They're still running from silence.

>>10602 Alright, let's forget all the personal valuations and trends of an age, but then outmoded intellectual honesty and self-reflection, sacrificed to the virtue of being oppressed. The people don't believe in anything whatsoever but their inalienable right to degrade and flatten and stand above the heaps of what remains. I just wonder if it's possible to build any spaces that could withstand, without buckling, the weight of public opinion, or if all we can really hope for is some friends to have a few drinks with and one or two enriching connections as we pore over what sends us to the end. I guess I'd be among a handful few ever to live if I didn't suffer some anxieties over finding meaning. That their worlds would fade from memory all the same. I just have this sense, lately, that the entire world is now populated by the person who will rebuke you with some trivial moral complaint over absolutely every piece art or part of culture. That the very idea of critical, dispassionate discourse has disappeared from the world. All now left, a tepid equilibrium of passionless pap passing undigested. Enjoyed, with a nagging, unaddressable voice strangled with a painful smile.

>>10603 it’s really telling when there’s so many interesting branches of conversation to comment on, but low-iq, low-culture individuals keep replying with nearly the exact same thing

>>10620 It is up to us to painstakingly create these spaces from the ground-up, since they have been dissipated. If I may; *certain* societies are more anti-intellectual than others...

>>10620 In high school, my English teacher told me that my essays were ‘too verbose’. This was good advice and has served me well throughout my life. Could you have taken this advice? I assume you would’ve scoffed at the teacher as being too provincial, below your intellect.

>>10620 You are so far up your own ass I’m surprised you can reach the keyboard

>>10624 I just don't believe such a thing can exist in the public eye, anymore. Being cultured is being a dirty elitist who deserves to be torn down. Hence, no public intellectuals, no pride in one's education or knowledge; only forever lower bottoms and insular hobbyists without community. Someone out there is reading Homer and the Western Canon, but you'll never meet them. Someone out there is trying to understand our civilisation, but can never talk about it in such a hostile world.

>>10625 There's a clear difference between being verbose and being eloquent.

>>10627 I agree that in the pubic eye, high culture has faded or, essentially, disappeared. It has its enthusiasts, but it no longer has the broad cultural authority it once did. Whether that was the publics choice, or the choice of the institutions, it is hard to day. Probably both. I also agree that we do not have public intellectuals anymore. What we have is popular intellectuals, which is not the same thing. Its the difference of breadth over depth. The internet allowed a democratization of high culture, but in doing so, it flattened it. And that removed any status or reward structure for cultural excellence in the public sphere. Now, allow me to be optimistic. I think this may be a phase. The internet is not going anywhere, but there is a growing sense of exhaustion with the lowest common denominator culture it has produced. People are starting to want something deeper. Something with weight. I don't expect high culture to become mainstream again, but I do think it will become meaningful to a sizeable minority. People who want more than algorithmic sludge they are fed daily.

>>10654 I don't think there were many eras when high culture was in the public eye or had large cultural cachet. High culture was always the culture enjoyed (or performatively enjoyed) by the elite. Something specifically kept separate from the public as a means of class differentiation. Also, we very much have public intellectuals. Instead of essays and articles, they use Twitter and podcasts, whether for good or bad. A few examples that come to mind are Andrew Tate, Hasan Piker, Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, Curtis Yarvin, and the list goes on and on. Even members of the economic elite engage with this form of public debate. Marc Andreessen and Elon Musk come to mind as individuals who frequently muse about the state of the world in these public forums.

>>10654 There hasn’t been a robust “high culture” since the 1700s or earlier. Economic mobility has decoupled an entrenched aristocratic class from their means of patronizing high art. What remains is a semimeritocratic soup where discerning individuals can search for what’s valuable. If you can’t find it, you’re not discerning.

>>11193 >>10657

>>11126 I’ve been thinking about this a lot. For most of human history someone had to be performing for you to experience music or entertainment and I think having infinite jest on phone has ruined our appetite to create great art. With the tools we have to create art it should be greater than ever, and in some ways it is, but there’s obviously been some decline. People hate to think about this but albums like Time Out used to sell like crazy. We’re just dumber now.

>>11164 I am enlightened. Not because of divine wisdom, but because I have seen way better movies than the people around me. I have read books from cover to cover, and when I understand them, I understand them better than the unwashed masses. The music I listen to has not before been heard by commoners; I have dug it out of the sands of obscurity and placed it upon a marble altar in the temple of my mind. I have also received a mighty education because my dad paid for it. All the braindead fools of this world know not what they are missing. I am become Petrarchan, arbiter of culture.

>>11179 >waah people think I’m pretentious just because I read books no, people think you’re pretentious because you’re a misanthropic self-absorbed shut-in. I assume you’re a shut-in or at least friendless because virtually none of the incredibly condescending statements you made about “normies” in this thread are substantiated by actual human interaction. I have met no shortage of people in real life who would be happy to talk about the “western canon” (which most people read the highlights of in school) or whatever other “high culture” you’re referring to. Opera? Museums? I’ve never seen an empty museum. Why not take someone to an opera? What is your actual gripe here? That people don’t have the same taste in entertainment as you? Because listening to Chopin or reading Heidegger or whatever the fuck you’re so proud of yourself for doing isn’t really any different from listening to Charli XCX. Of course Homer and Love Island USA don’t have the same level of artistic merit. I’m not saying all content is equal. But the purpose is the same. Books and TV and music and culture are all hobbies whose only practical purpose is to pass time. You don’t need any particular level of intelligence to enjoy traditional works. I know people who love reading old books but are morons and also people who are much smarter than you or me and have no insecure qualms about pop music or any other way they choose to spend time. I don’t understand what makes you so content and smug. It’s one thing to be proud of your sophisticated taste but it’s another to think you’re above everyone else for it. How many languages do you speak? Do you know how to paint? Can you fix a car? Can you do calculus? Do you know anything about biology or physics or computers? There’s so much to do and learn in the world before we die and you seriously want to use your time whining online about how no one understands you. It seems like all the culture in the world can’t buy a little self awareness.

That's from six weeks ago, I'm referring to the comment chain started by >>11179. There is no way that is the same poster.

I am >>11179 . I think I am being confused with at least two other posters. >>11187 >>11193 Both make great points. I think the amount of vitriol and assumptions that defending the value of art and intellectualism kicks up is very telling. Someone said that I am probably a shut in and that there are other things worth investigating in life like car repair. Imagine applying this rhetoric to any other field of interest. “Hey I notice you’re passionate about _____, have you considered getting off your high horse and learning about pottery instead? What are you, autistic?” The worst part is, I imagine the people arguing on here are all fine and charming people, it’s just that the anti-intellectual streak has gotten to such a depth that even clever and thoughtful people spout this rhetoric. I am lucky enough to have friends who read and enjoy art but, like another person in here said, that simply isn’t available to a majority of people. Not only that, but you have a unilateral attack from both lower class and educated people against anything that could obliquely be interpreted as pretentious. Art can impart such nobility and depth of emotion that I am genuinely saddened when people rail against different art forms and people that value them. My old coworker once told me he was mocked and called gay for bringing books onto a fishing boat he had worked on. I think that’s sad. In academia I’ve seen classic works put aside in the name of accessibility which I also think is sad and misguided. I think people feel condescended when these topics come up which comes from a place of insecurity or pride. To reuse the earlier car analogy, I don’t think everyone needs to know how to rebuild an engine, but knowing how to change a tire or jump a battery is a good minimum. I grew up in a poor and uneducated part of the world and have been lucky enough to have art and literature as a companion in my life. I wish that more people could enjoy these things regardless of class, race, etc. If that’s autistic or pretentious, then thats what I am.

>>11185 All of my observations about "normies" are from real interactions with real people. Eventually, because I'm smart, I realized I should learn to be charismatic just like I realized I should learn how to get money. Now, I'm not Warren Buffet or Bill Clinton, but I liked to think I've learned and earned enough for a marker of success. And that's how I came to know "normies". That's how I came to have people tell me, "Oh, you've only read 4 or 5 books this year, I've read 50!" and "Wow, you really think you're smart reading books like that?" and "This sci-fi novel is really philosophical." I've gotten myself various types of friend groups. I'm naturally curious. My suburb friends are all into Noah Kahan and sports betting. My weird poly friends are into Dungeon Crawler Carl and . My PhD friends are all into the latest friendslop video games and sports betting. My anime friends are into One Piece and Naruto, still. None of them read books, they just listen to audio books. Maybe they read a manga. I specifically went to graduate school to find people who read and engaged with ideas and thought about things, but I couldn't find them (and it disgusted me how 'science' is done). Now, maybe that's a me problem, but I don't think so after trying so hard. I genuinely like all of my friends as people, but I don't feel like I have a peer. Anyway, yes I can fix a car. I can play two instruments. I'm fit. I'm in good shape. People consider me attractive. I'm still tired of pretending to give a shit about any of this garbage.

>>11185 >I have met no shortage of people in real life who would be happy to talk about the “western canon” (which most people read the highlights of in school) or whatever other “high culture” you’re referring to. Opera? Museums? I’ve never seen an empty museum. Why not take someone to an opera? So what's happening in this thread, as I said in the first reply two months ago, is a socio-cultural divide. I spent a lot of time in the US as a kid and it was extremely isolating coming from a European background. How can you take someone to the opera when there's no opera theater in your city? How can you talk to them about the classics when they scoff at you for reading in the first place? But that depends on the city you live in, if we had moved to New York or Chicago I'm sure it wouldn't have been as painful. For that reason, it's imperative in such threads for each poster to clarify where they are from, and their relative class status, even at the risk of identifying themselves or breaking the spell of imageboard anonymity, or else we are stuck in this cycle of pointless psychoanalysis and tit-for-tat arguing.

>>11187 if there’s no opera in your city then why pretend to be an opera connoisseur? I’m operating on the assumption that everyone in this thread has means because if you don’t you should worry less about larping as a cultural aristocrat and more about getting your money up. Maybe I failed to consider the edge case of the guy who lives in a coal mining town in rural Idaho and none of the illiterate blue collar workers will discuss the Socratic dialogues with him. Poor guy

I am >>11179 . I think I am being confused with at least two other posters. >>11187 >>11193 Both make great points. I think the amount of vitriol and assumptions that defending the value of art and intellectualism kicks up is very telling. Someone said that I am probably a shut in and that there are other things worth investigating in life like car repair. Imagine applying this rhetoric to any other field of interest. “Hey I notice you’re passionate about _____, have you considered getting off your high horse and learning about pottery instead? What are you, autistic?” The worst part is, I imagine the people arguing on here are all fine and charming people, it’s just that the anti-intellectual streak has gotten to such a depth that even clever and thoughtful people spout this rhetoric. I am lucky enough to have friends who read and enjoy art but, like another person in here said, that simply isn’t available to a majority of people. Not only that, but you have a unilateral attack from both lower class and educated people against anything that could obliquely be interpreted as pretentious. Art can impart such nobility and depth of emotion that I am genuinely saddened when people rail against different art forms and people that value them. My old coworker once told me he was mocked and called gay for bringing books onto a fishing boat he had worked on. I think that’s sad. In academia I’ve seen classic works put aside in the name of accessibility which I also think is sad and misguided. I think people feel condescended when these topics come up which comes from a place of insecurity or pride. To reuse the earlier car analogy, I don’t think everyone needs to know how to rebuild an engine, but knowing how to change a tire or jump a battery is a good minimum. I grew up in a poor and uneducated part of the world and have been lucky enough to have art and literature as a companion in my life. I wish that more people could enjoy these things regardless of class, race, etc. If that’s autistic or pretentious, then thats what I am.

>>11190 You can exaggerate, minimize, and victim blame all you want, nothing will take away the fact that Americans are simply less culturally developed. And as I said in my comment, this is a trend that passes through all income or class groups. You are the one that took this in a pointless and cliche "high culture" direction, as the person you originally replied to didn't mention anything of that sort in his comment. You reveal your own ignorance and participation in the matter by bringing up these tired rhetorical cliches of opera and high art, then again the same cliches about red state rural populations.

>>11193 >>10657

I am >>11179 . I think I am being confused with at least two other posters. >>11187 >>11193 Both make great points. I think the amount of vitriol and assumptions that defending the value of art and intellectualism kicks up is very telling. Someone said that I am probably a shut in and that there are other things worth investigating in life like car repair. Imagine applying this rhetoric to any other field of interest. “Hey I notice you’re passionate about _____, have you considered getting off your high horse and learning about pottery instead? What are you, autistic?” The worst part is, I imagine the people arguing on here are all fine and charming people, it’s just that the anti-intellectual streak has gotten to such a depth that even clever and thoughtful people spout this rhetoric. I am lucky enough to have friends who read and enjoy art but, like another person in here said, that simply isn’t available to a majority of people. Not only that, but you have a unilateral attack from both lower class and educated people against anything that could obliquely be interpreted as pretentious. Art can impart such nobility and depth of emotion that I am genuinely saddened when people rail against different art forms and people that value them. My old coworker once told me he was mocked and called gay for bringing books onto a fishing boat he had worked on. I think that’s sad. In academia I’ve seen classic works put aside in the name of accessibility which I also think is sad and misguided. I think people feel condescended when these topics come up which comes from a place of insecurity or pride. To reuse the earlier car analogy, I don’t think everyone needs to know how to rebuild an engine, but knowing how to change a tire or jump a battery is a good minimum. I grew up in a poor and uneducated part of the world and have been lucky enough to have art and literature as a companion in my life. I wish that more people could enjoy these things regardless of class, race, etc. If that’s autistic or pretentious, then thats what I am.

>>11204